?
 
 
18 November 2014 @ 01:00 pm
Introspection (not the GObject one)  
Disclaimer: I’m not used to writing personal stuff on Debian channels. However, there is nothing new here for those who know me from other public channels.


Yesterday, I received the weirdest email from well-known troll MikeeUSA. He thought I shared his views of a horrible world full of bloodthirsty feminists using systemd in their quest for domination over poor white male heterosexuals. The most nauseating paragraph was probably the one where he showed signs of the mentality of a pedocriminal.

At first, I shrugged it off and sent him an email explaining I didn’t want anything with his stinky white male supremacist theories, assorted with a bit of taunting. But after discovering all that stuff was actually sent to public mailing lists, I took the time for a second look and started a bit of introspection.

MikeeUSA thought I was a white male supremacist because of the so-called SmellyWerewolf incident, 6 years ago.
Oh boy, people change in six years. Upon re-reading that, I had trouble admitting I was the one to write it. Memory is selective, and with time, you tend not to remember some gruesome details, especially the ones that conflict most with your moral values.

I can assure every reader that the only people I intended to mock then were those who mistook Debian mailing lists for advertising channels; but I understand now that my message must have caused pain to a lot more people than that. So, it may come late, but let me take this opportunity to offer my sincerest apologies to anyone I may have hurt at that time.


It may seem strange for someone with deeply-rooted values of equality to have written that. To have considered that it was okay to stereotype people. And I think I found this okay because to me, those people were given equal rights, and were therefore equal. But the fight for equality is not over when everyone is given the same rights. Not until they are given the same opportunities to exert those rights. Which does not happen when they live in a society that likes to fit them in little archetypal peg holes, never giving you the chance to question where those stereotypes come from.

For me, that chance came from an unusual direction: the fight against prostitution. This goes way back for me. Since when I was a teenager, I have always been ticked off at the idea of nonconsensual sex that somehow evades criminal responsibility because of money compensation. I never understood why it wasn’t considered as rape. Yet it sounded weird that a male heterosexual would hold such opinions; after all, male heterosexuals should go to prostitutes as a kind of social ritual, right?

It was only three years ago that an organization of men against prostitution was founded in France. Not only did I find out that I was not alone with my progressive ideas, I was given the opportunity to exchange with many men and women who had studied prostitution: its effects on victims, its relationship to rape culture and more generally to the place men and women hold in society. Because eventually, it all boils down to little peg holes in which we expect people to fit: the virile man or the faggot, the whore or the mother. For me, it was liberating. I could finally get rid of the discomfort of being a white male heterosexual that didn’t enter the little peg holes that were made for me.

And now, after Sweden 15 years ago, a new group of countries are finally adopting laws to criminalize the act of paying for sex. Including France. That’s too bad for MikeeUSA, but this country is no longer the eldorado for white male supremacists. And I’m proud that our lobbying made a contribution, however small, to that change.
 
 
 
(Anonymous) on November 18th, 2014 01:30 pm (UTC)
progressive ideas ??
For me that's no progressive ideas. Just the opposite in fact.
It's a step backward to prohibition.
Just as for drugs, alcohol, whatever, criminalization of behaviour pushes the actors from both sides (providers and consumers) deeper in the clandestinity
and that is a for the worse.
A real progressive idea is to understand that suppression is a failure that enforces criminal organisations and therefor controlling and structuring is the way.
Even good old Ruth Dreifus understand that https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbFrady72Bs
(Anonymous) on November 18th, 2014 01:38 pm (UTC)
Moral != Legal
Making something unlawful won't magically make it disappear.

We tried it with alcohol, drugs, prostitution.
Results: marginalised people getting more marginalised, mobsters getting more powerful.

I will stop here becuase I don't want to feed that MikeeUSA troll.

-Frankie

np237np237 on November 18th, 2014 02:18 pm (UTC)
Re: Moral != Legal
It is a widespread belief that criminalizing the john (abolitionism) leads to the same result as criminalizing the prostitute (prohibitionism).

Reality shows that it doesn’t work this way. Mafias are fleeing abolitionist countries and the prostitution rates are falling. Even better, prostitutes are protected and less prone to be attacked, because they can have the police on their side if anything goes wrong.

I’m not going to elaborate because this is not the right place to do so, but you might want to look more closely on that topic before jumping to conclusions.
(Anonymous) on November 18th, 2014 10:24 pm (UTC)
Reality shows...
...that things are more complicated then they seem.

The Swedish government says, no surprise, that abolition of prostitution lead to less prostitution and less human trafficking. While this might be true or not (many say only visible street prostitution dropped), sex workers in Sweden complain about very difficult working conditions. Because customers of sex workers are practically illegal, business initiation and negotiation have to be hold most secretly. This makes sex workers more vulnerable to violence and procuration then it would be in the open. According to independent journalists, violations and abuse on sex workers has risen dramatically in Sweden since 1999.

You might want to look more closely on that topic before jumping to conclusions.
Miriam RuizMiriam Ruiz on November 18th, 2014 04:54 pm (UTC)
Thanks
Thanks for writing this.

Greetings,
Miry
(Anonymous) on November 18th, 2014 06:41 pm (UTC)
I do not agree
One question is to be in favour or against prostitution (morally). I will not go into this aspect here. The other question is, whether prostitution should be prohibited. If two adult persons agree on having sex, they should have sex, right? If two adult persons agree on an exchange of money, they can do this, right? Why would you want to prohibit the two things together? Instead of criminalising prostitution, I am in favour of legalising it entirely. Here in Germany, the government did a small, but positive step in 2002 to improve the situation for (female and male) sex workers. Unfortunately, the Christian right attacks the liberation law and there is a huge danger that sex workers will be rebuffed into the half-light. Organisations of sex workers, as well as left and green politicians in Germany try now to defend their rights and need all support. The feminist movement, unfortunately, is divided. The famous feminist Alice Schwarzer, who also writes for the right-wing BILD, is in favour of prohibition. Mainly younger feminists are more on the side of the sex workers movement.
(Anonymous) on November 18th, 2014 06:50 pm (UTC)
Mixed-content error
(Sorry this is not at all related to the post, I hope this is a suitable channel to report bugs in your website)

Your website does not load properly here with the default settings of Firefox or Chromium, when accessed via https. The problem is that the page is loading a CSS document via HTTP even when accessed via HTTPS, which modern browsers block for good reasons. That document is "http://np237.livejournal.com/res/27093971/stylesheet?1416328580". This severely degrades the user experience for people using HTTPS Everywhere, and unnecessarily degrades the security of your website.

PS: When submitting this comment, I am getting the warning that it will be sent via HTTP, so you even have some more HTTPS mixed content issues. And submitting doesn't work even when ignoring the warning.
np237np237 on November 19th, 2014 11:14 am (UTC)
Re: Mixed-content error
Well, sorry for that - livejournal is not very SSL-friendly. In an attempt to fix that, I think I made things worse and made it outright impossible to access the page through SSL :/
(Anonymous) on November 18th, 2014 10:11 pm (UTC)
People can change to the better
and you seem to be an example of this rare species :~) Very much appreciated!
(Anonymous) on November 19th, 2014 02:24 am (UTC)
And yet..
you use a lolicon image as your avatar.

hocus pocus
np237np237 on November 19th, 2014 02:45 am (UTC)
Re: And yet..
The joke's on you.
(Deleted comment)
np237np237 on November 19th, 2014 07:45 am (UTC)
Re: What do you have against young girls?
The party van is coming for you, Mikee.
(Deleted comment)
(Anonymous) on November 19th, 2014 10:47 am (UTC)
Re: What do you have against young girls?
Mikeee: Thanks, we all already knew that you don't have (the) balls...

But I'm pretty sure your behavior is borderline illegal in your country, too, and the FBI and NSA have you on their watch list.

God hates you. Everybody hates you. That's why you are so angry.

Let's just hope that someone takes your eye first (I pray).
Because God never meant the bible the way you interpret it.

Matthew 7:15 - Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

You are such a false prophet. You advocate for killing of feminists, despite "Thou shalt not kill".

Ephesians 4:31-32 - Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.

"Malice, bitterness, rage and anger". That is what you are known for... so we must get rid of you.
(Anonymous) on November 19th, 2014 12:08 pm (UTC)
Re: What do you have against young girls?
(Also, MikeeUSA, you seem to have lost your marbles, too... you really need to see a doctor and a pastor... you need to tell him you have been asking people to kill feminists for years. He'll confirm that this is a sin, too.)
np237np237 on November 19th, 2014 08:05 am (UTC)
Prostitution is not work
This is not the place for a lengthy debate on that topic, but I’d like to react on the term “sex workers” that was employed by several pro-prostitution people here.

We are talking about an activity where:
- A large part of “workers” are victims of human trafficking, under constraint with fake papers.
- An overwhelming proportion of those “workers” who are not into human trafficking are former victims of child rape.
- Most, if not all, “workers” have to make abundant use of drugs just to tolerate the sheer pain of a dozen unwanted intercourse each night, while having to “work” extra hours to pay for these drugs.
- These “workers” have a death rate 40 times over that of the rest of the population.
In the best case, this is a self-destructive activity that is impossible to get out of without help. In the common case, this is the most ugly form of modern slavery. But no matter how you look at it, this cannot be considered work.

You can push the idea further.
If it is work, you need training. Will you send your children to prostitution school? (You think this is a joke? It exists in Spain.)
If it is work, unemployed people will have to accept such a “job” or be kicked out of unemployment benefits. (You think this is extreme? It happened in Germany.)
Will being beaten to death by a john be considered a workplace accident?

Every time I see the words “sex workers”, I know there’s been successful propaganda from self-appointed unions which, once you dig up a minute, you will find are financed and operated by pimps.

Edited at 2014-11-19 08:11 am (UTC)
(Anonymous) on November 19th, 2014 12:23 pm (UTC)
Re: Prostitution is not work
Joss, some of your arguments are correct, but I like to point out some errors (IMHO etc.):

I don't have children (yet), but I would prefer them to have a job as sex worker rather than e.g. in the military - or in the automotive industry, which kills more people and environment than any other thing in the world.

The fact that there are sex workers from outside the EU working here with fake papers or sans papiers is a consequence of the racist immigration laws. It is the laws that make esp. women from Eastern europe an easy victim to pimps and trafikkers.

Also, your argument about pushing unemployed into prostitution is flawed. The problem is not prostitution, but the fact, that people can be forced to some work that is against their principles. E.g. I'm veggie and they can force me to work in a slaughterhouse! The state should not be allowed to cut benefits, if someone does not take a job e.g. on ethical grounds, no matter what!

I'm a little bit shocked that you defame the organisations of sex workers as "financed and operated" by pimps. Maybe you are right and I'm just naive (I'm probably am), but groups like Hydra (hydra-berlin.de) or Dona Carmen (donacarmen.de) look decent to me. Of course, I know only their web pages.

I don't know many sex workers, but I met some (not as a customer, I might need to add), both male and female, and as far as I know, they were neither forced to live here (but born here), they liked their job, but I'm not sure, whether they were totally honest when it comes to taxes. The alternative for some is to work very hard in a factory or as office/hotel cleaners, so they preferred sex work.
(Anonymous) on November 19th, 2014 10:18 am (UTC)
This is a nice post Joss, thanks for writing it!

Having read your original SmellyWolf mail, my immediate thoughts were:
- this is somewhat humorous, i chuckled
- there is obviously no harm meant, this guy is _not_ a sexist or anything like it
- nevertheless, this will make some people feel unwelcome in the project (however unintentionally)
- it was therefore a mistake to post it

An even bigger mistake in my not so humble opinion was to react by vilifying you (having the entirely predictable effect of causing a backlash, and a backlash against the backlash, and obviously not convincing you or the people who thought you were right to post what you did of anything).

What you were 'guilty' of was not in and of itself wrong (in isolation or in a different context it would be entirely harmless), but it may have had undesired consequences (making people feel bad for various meta-reasons). This is often referred to as 'casual sexism' (a misnomer I would argue, it has nothing to do with sexism and framing it in that way does everyone a disservice).

I am (as probably you are too) of the opinion that we should work towards the goal of creating an atmosphere welcoming to everyone (women in particular, as they appear to be particularly under-represented), and one way of doing that would be to avoid the kinds of posts you made back then. I think the best way of working towards that goal is to stop creating enemies out of potential supporters, don't vilify people who do well-meaning things that unintentionally hurt the cause. We should note our objections, and encourage the person in question to perform some introspection, but leave it at that.

There are enough MikeeUSA's in this world (luckily not many though), that we don't need to create additional 'monsters', which is what the 'geekfeminism' website (and similar projects) do IMNSHO.

Anyway, thanks again for your post, this is precisely the kind of thing we need!
np237np237 on November 19th, 2014 11:12 am (UTC)
Thanks for your answer. I agree that being confrontational in reaction to sexist stuff from people who meant no harm is not anymore helpful than the sexist stuff itself. A recent example was the backlash against the Rosetta engineer who wear an inappropriate shirt. It was inappropriate, sure, but subjecting him to public humiliation only triggered violent reactions and gave a voice to much more radical anti-feminist speech.

This is also something to keep in mind when dealing with #GamerGate people. The leaders of the movement are violent anti-feminist assholes, for sure, but there are also a lot of people who genuinely believe some of their bullshit and don’t have the maturity to understand the harm that is done to women with their depiction in video games.