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13 June 2009 @ 08:59 pm
The very best of anti-Mono zealots  

If forums did not exist, happily we would have blog comments for entertainment.

From Jo Shields’ insightful explanations:

“Mono is a cancer that attaches itself in an intellectual property sense to everything it touches.”
“Mono serves no useful purpose to anyone other than Microsoft.”
“Fuck mono, parrot will probably end up replacing that piece of shit.”

From LHB’s link to the previous post:

“It shouldn't be a surprise to find out this crappy little blog was de Icaza's.”
“Mono is dead”

From Robert Millan’s uninformed accusations:

“It is sick and a slap in the face to the good people in Debian to tolerate such a psycho.”
“When also Miguel de lcaza stops getting checks from M$, even he will stop pushing Mono and get a life.”
“How much did Microsoft pay Joss for this? We know de Icaza is getting paid “bonuses” fro his work, so what was Joss’ paycheck?”
“I think Mono is an abomination”
“If this happen i will switch distro to slackware.”

From my previous blog entry:

“Hey whats your salery for this -Hey we all love Mono- Posting? Did Novell or Microsoft paid you?”
“Have you noticed that you are arguing from the same position as Microsoft is with Internet Explorer ?”
“An email client is not part of a Desktop.”
“These are *APPLICATIONS* and forcing me to install them is, to my mind, antithetical to the open source ideal.”
“The majority of the Debian userbase has no use for patent-encumbered microsoft-wannabe software.”
“Will somebody kick Joss a** already? Thank you.”
“ notice that you didn't contradict me, so we are in agreement that Tomboy, Fspot, and GnomeDo aren't cool.”
“I sincerely hope you drop any kind of linux and/or debian development ASAP.”
“honestly all those mono files horribly ending with .exe on Linux sucks”
“Evolution serves no useful purpose in today's world”
“As an aside, I still write programs for Messy Doss.”
“Hey, before you start packaging up software where you have no idea whatsoever why people have an issue with it […]”
“That last bit about you watching anime instead of working on that project because some journalist hurt your feelings is a concern for me. I wasn't aware children had leadership roles in Debian's future...”
“You don't know nor belong the free software movement. You should go and ask for a job at Microsoft! (lame botas de Microsoft!)”

From OSnews’ surprisingly neutral explanations about what is happening in Debian:

“And gnuplot is neither GNU nor OpenSource.”
“GNote is not a Tomboy ripoff.”
“I swear people like you are just sitting in a call center in india getting paid by microsoft to post lame anti-anti-mono crap. ”
“Or are you just copying and pasting rebuttals from a spreadsheet put together by MS's marketing/psychology department?”
“You can't just remove mono and the associated apps as this will cause problems when doing updates due to a meta package being missing.”

And of course, Boycott Novell’s troll of the day is a recommended reading for anyone wanting to get a share of fun.

And there are now some in this very blog entry! We’re going into a loop!

“After this, I do really hope they kick you out of Debian.”
“have you guys kicked out Kurt Roeckx for crippling OpenSSL? I heard he got a nice job offer from the NSA over that.”

UPDATE: we made Slashdot!

“It's just like Wine and DOSEmu: a gateway to viruses that originated on Microsoft platforms.”
“I see Microsoft having a field day with this...”
“But it's not just Microsoft's products that bloat Debian.”
“Why are this guys, which I believe have their best of interests, trying to shove up our asses a lame excuse of a programming language that basically doesn't bring anything new but license agreements, EULAs, patents to a perfectly, usable environment?”
“I can code a Tomboy like app in Python in three days...”
“Because nobody fucking wants Mono on their system!”
“Get in bed with Microsoft and you have to be careful that you don't end up with a knife in your back and act accordingly.”
“He's just a pushy immature unmannered jerk who managed to slip something in early in the development cycle.”

Let me add to this a disclaimer: if the people who want me out of the Project – for re-adding a dependency into a metapackage – volunteer to contribute to Debian, and manage during 6 months to contribute together the same amount of work I am contributing currently in GNOME packaging, I’ll happily leave the project.

EDIT: added new quotes, last addition: 16 june, 08:13 UTC.

(Anonymous) on June 13th, 2009 07:32 pm (UTC)
C'est la honte.
C'est franchement la honte que des développeurs comme vous soient attaqués par des lusers.
C'est un grand dommage aussi que vous ayez à perdre du temps pour vous défendre de ces inutiles attaques.

Sacré dommage.
Merci pour votre boulot.

Ciao, d.
(Anonymous) on June 13th, 2009 09:39 pm (UTC)
Re: C'est la honte.
Soory, I wrote in french my previous comment.
I hope it's not a problem.
By the way I support dev chooses.
ext_176403 on June 13th, 2009 07:43 pm (UTC)
Personal Highlights
“If this happen i will switch distro to slackware.”

Hahaha. That's my favorite one. Not only is the grammar and capitalization wrong, but I think its exactly what most non-anti-Mono-zealots would prefer: for these people to leave & stop polluting our community.

"Hey whats your salery for this -Hey we all love Mono- Posting? Did Novell or Microsoft paid you?"

More excellent spelling and grammar, but my favorite part is how the Venn Diagram for anti-Mono-zealots and Conspiracy Theorists must overlap completely.

“Have you noticed that you are arguing from the same position as Microsoft is with Internet Explorer ?”

It should be noted the same anonymous post contains gems such as:
"I completely agree - there should be no *REQUIRED* applications at all."
Right now you're probably thinking WTF does that mean? Well the poster explains:
"Bundling is *bad* mmmmmkay."
Ahhh, thanks for clearing it up.

"The majority of the Debian userbase has no use for patent-encumbered microsoft-wannabe software."

The majority of Debian users don't play MP3s? Huh. Guess I'm in some evil patent loving minority.

And lets just end with a patently false one: “GNote is not a Tomboy ripoff.”
From the Gnote site: "Gnote is a port of Tomboy to C++."

Thanks for the laughs. I'm glad to see Linux Hater isn't the only one allowed to have fun at the expense of the trolls in the FOSS community.
Wayne Boreanurban_terrorist on June 21st, 2009 10:27 pm (UTC)
Your Community?

It's our community too.
(Anonymous) on June 13th, 2009 08:00 pm (UTC)
You do realise that by focussing on the braindead, ineloquent comments, you are just fanning the flames, right? Blog posts like this aren't helpful to anyone, I'd say, but hey, it's your blog :).

Anyway, I think that had you focussed on the more insightful and eloquent comments around the web, you'd have noticed that there are many valid complaints regarding the inclusion of *Tomboy* (that's what this was about!). Not only does it+deps take up quite some space, it's also archtecturally-challenged. Gnote solves both of those problems, so users wondering why that route isn't taken are accurate in their concerns, and making this all about the mindless anti-Mono comments just dismisses their complaints without addressing them properly.

We can't skip Mono entirely, of course. The patents situation around Mono is interesting, and not at all very clear. The iTWire article made some bad assumptions, but in the end the concerns raised were valid:


Even though I personally don't have any strong feelings either way about Mono, the patent concerns are genuine. Regarding Tomboy, the size and architecture issues are genuine too.

Dismissing those without even addressing them doesn't seem like god community behaviour to me.

Thom Holwerda
(Anonymous) on June 13th, 2009 08:55 pm (UTC)
Re: Uhm
Joss is annoyed that those issues were brought up, because he's not capable of addressing them.

On the bright side, he's got a sense of humor, which kinda compensates it. Believe it or not, humor is a very useful resource of the human mind.
Re: Uhm - (Anonymous) on June 13th, 2009 10:20 pm (UTC) (Expand)
This is a legal issue - urban_terrorist on June 21st, 2009 10:33 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Uhm - (Anonymous) on June 14th, 2009 08:57 am (UTC) (Expand)
(Anonymous) on June 13th, 2009 08:03 pm (UTC)
If you have no arguments, ridicule the other side.
What do you want to archive with this finger pointing? Makeing it clear to everyone that you do not even have an argument that could beat "adding mono needs 50 MB more in the base install", so you must try to make anyone forget that one?
http://www2.apebox.org/wordpress/http://www2.apebox.org/wordpress/ on June 13th, 2009 08:44 pm (UTC)
Re: If you have no arguments, ridicule the other side.
"Ridicule is he only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them..."
-- Thomas Jefferson

The gap between Gnote in Sid on top of gnome-desktop-environment, and Tomboy in Sid on top of Gnome-desktop-environment, is 15 meg - the 50 number is a red herring (and wrong).

The gap if you use the current pkg-cli-apps SVN copy of Tomboy is 10 meg. For 10 meg you gain 3 times as much localization, and 3 times as many extensions (e.g. remote syncing between machines).

So, with the actual numbers in place: argue that 10 meg is worthwhile to drop localization and features from a multi-gigabyte install.
Re: If you have no arguments, ridicule the other side. - (Anonymous) on June 14th, 2009 09:27 am (UTC) (Expand)
http://www2.apebox.org/wordpress/http://www2.apebox.org/wordpress/ on June 13th, 2009 10:31 pm (UTC)
My new favourite...

An epic reply if ever there was one!
(Anonymous) on June 14th, 2009 08:16 am (UTC)
You're running out of arguments
Seriously, those are COMMENTS on the pages, not ENTRIES by their authors.
You're using comments by some to poke fun at people such as Robert Millan, whom I think exposed their views in a civilized manner. Those comments were not his. If you even bothered to really read Robert's comments, you can see even he even tones down some of them.
If this isn't default trolling, what is it?

After this, I do really hope they kick you out of Debian. What you are doing is being a blunder. Someone with your responsibility can't act like a shameless troll from 4chan.
Geez, Mono is a virtual machine. That means it interprets bytecode to do the instructions the bytecode specifies. It's like a virtual CPU.

Why would anyone need THAT for a note-taking program? When there's even a mostly complete C++ alternative? You use the most convenient choice for general purposes, not Tomboy (even if you might prefer it - it's not the right choice for most)

Mono is supposedly reverse-engineered, then why is it sponsered by Microsoft sometimes!? It just does not make sense, you don't use technology like that, which has something under it.

I won't hide behind this anonymous tag. My website is at http://tails92.sepwich.com and my mail is tails92 at gmail dot com.

(Anonymous) on June 14th, 2009 03:25 pm (UTC)
Re: You're running out of arguments
There are applications other than a note-taking one. The previous blog post mentioned that there are some which does not have a C++ equivalent, which means Mono is going to be pulled in one way or the other.

You might want to look at this (http://www2.apebox.org/wordpress/rants/93/) as to whether Gnote is an acceptable alternative. Don't miss out the comments that Gnote developers didn't want compatibility with Tomboy. Nice to see the Linux community working with each other and reinventing the wheel again. Seriously, they could've made something better than Tomboy rather than making a clone of it.

Mono is an implementation based on the ECMA standards, not by reverse-engineering.

By the way, it's not up to you to dictate what developers should use nor is it up to you to decide what's the right or convenient choice for most people.
(Anonymous) on June 14th, 2009 10:10 am (UTC)
you forgot
Embrace, Extend and Extinguish
(Anonymous) on June 14th, 2009 07:09 pm (UTC)
Dont listen to these people
Dont listen to these people. They just hate Microsoft. I bet they don't dislike having Samba, Wine (or anything else that might be in danger of Microsofts patents) in the default install.
Wayne Boreanurban_terrorist on June 21st, 2009 10:37 pm (UTC)

Glad to see the trolls are awake.

Samba has a patent agreement with Microsoft, one which allows them to distribute under the GPL. We can thank the EU for that.

Wine isn't included in the default install. And the patent threat against Wine is similar to the patent threat against Mono, which is why I think that Mono should not be included in the default install.

(Anonymous) on June 15th, 2009 06:49 am (UTC)
Please do not feed the trolls
You are doing a great job withing debian and I enjoyed your Mono insights.

Move on and stay with us.

(Anonymous) on June 15th, 2009 04:39 pm (UTC)
Re: Please do not feed the trolls
I find this entry very saddening. Some of us who really believe in free software are very worried about basing the future development of Linux upon a patent-ridden, Microsoft-controlled technology.
The fact that the only explanations we get from those who push in this direction are derision and insult, makes me worry even more.
Re: Please do not feed the trolls - ext_110829 on June 18th, 2009 11:25 pm (UTC) (Expand)
vxbinacavxbinaca on June 15th, 2009 08:49 pm (UTC)
I came to linux to get away from M$'s crap.

Also: have you guys kicked out Kurt Roeckx for crippling OpenSSL? I heard he got a nice job offer from the NSA over that. The devs have an interesting tradition of being a kabal of people covering their asses for stupid decisions like this.

I use Ubuntu so I don't really care. It's a simple fix to remove mono/Tomboy first thing whenever I install a distro.
(Anonymous) on June 15th, 2009 10:22 pm (UTC)
question regarding the meta package
I've been keeping away from the meta packages like gnome-desktop-environment, since I usually ended up with a boat load of apps I had no use for. in other words I don't know what is included in gnome-desktop-environment.

You said "professional-grade note-taking is a vital.." I personally find things like wordprocessor, spreadsheet, and presentation applications more vital; I don't see them included in the gnome-desktop-environment meta package?(or are they included indirectly)

What are the rules for when to allow an app into the gnome-desktop-environment meta package? - to avoid bloat

Since I don't need note taking at home, and I don't need a photo gallery at work.
Are there any plans of making more narrow meta packages?
something like:

np237np237 on June 15th, 2009 10:38 pm (UTC)
Re: question regarding the meta package
Wow, an interesting question can arise from this.

A word processor is something you need several times a day when you exchange documents with other people. When you use a note-taking application, it’s in use most of your time. YMMV, of course.

That said, the rules are the following:
- gnome-desktop-environment is the official GNOME desktop as released by upstream, minus a few things that have too large dependencies (like some Evolution extensions and Tomboy).
- gnome is the same with much more applications, as we see fit for a standard desktop usage. The rules are grossly: application must rock, it must integrate with GNOME, and it must not overlap with other applications in the dependencies.
- gnome-office contains the office GNOME applications that you are talking about. gnome does not strictly depend on it since the Debian-installer people prefer to ship OOo by default.

The default gnome-desktop installation for Debian is gnome plus some other packages, including Iceweasel and OpenOffice.org. But the other packages are not considered a part of the GNOME desktop. You can see a clear gap in the quality of GNOME integration for those packages.

As for making more narrow metapackages, it’s a neverending joke. Everyone wants his own selection to be available, so we might end with as many metapackages as there are possible package combinations. If you don’t like the default selection, just don’t use it, that’s all.
Re: question regarding the meta package - (Anonymous) on June 18th, 2009 08:19 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Wayne Boreanurban_terrorist on June 28th, 2009 06:20 pm (UTC)
Stallman has come out against Mono

Several people have claimed that Stallman doesn't have any problem with Mono. Apparently he does.

np237np237 on June 28th, 2009 06:30 pm (UTC)
Re: Stallman has come out against Mono
Given that he has been out of his mind for quite a few years, that’s not surprising.
Re: Stallman has come out against Mono - urban_terrorist on June 28th, 2009 06:35 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Stallman has come out against Mono - np237 on June 28th, 2009 06:50 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Stallman has come out against Mono - urban_terrorist on June 28th, 2009 07:10 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Stallman has come out against Mono - np237 on June 28th, 2009 08:24 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Stallman has come out against Mono - urban_terrorist on June 28th, 2009 08:54 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Stallman has come out against Mono - np237 on June 28th, 2009 10:00 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Discriminating Views - urban_terrorist on June 29th, 2009 01:07 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Discriminating Views - np237 on June 29th, 2009 07:20 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Discriminating Views - urban_terrorist on July 1st, 2009 03:57 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Discriminating Views - np237 on July 1st, 2009 07:35 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Discriminating Views - np237 on July 1st, 2009 07:37 am (UTC) (Expand)
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