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03 November 2011 @ 08:05 pm
The lies of Merkozy  

When George Papandreou announced its will to submit the European “help“ program to the approbation of the Greek people, I don’t know whether he wanted to scare people, but man, he really achieved something. From Wall Street to the Bundestag, through the Élysée Palace, they are all in a state of advanced panic. There’s a joke that’s been circulating since: for next Hallowe’en, disguise yourself as a referendum.

Yes, these guys are afraid. Afraid of the people. They are afraid because it is now clear that their interests are not the same as the interests of the people. And what do you do when you are afraid? Well, you find yourself some way out, often by lying.

And indeed, Mrs Merkel and Mr Sarkozy have been repeating over and over something that has been then repeated over and over by most so-called journalists: that Greeks can only choose between two endings:

  1. they pay their debts to banks and rich people, and stay in the Euro zone;
  2. they don’t pay their debts to banks and rich people, and find themselves another currency.

That’s it: Mrs Merkel and Mr Sarkozy are outrageous liars.

There is another option for Greek people:

3. they don’t pay their debts to banks and rich people, and they stay in the Euro zone.
It’s as simple as that: nothing in European treaties can force a country to leave the Euro zone. And nothing in these treaties can force a country to honor their bonds. Greece is a sovereign state and, as such, can choose not to honor its sovereign debt. And choose to stay in the Euro zone: why would they want to go out? What does it have to do with the currency those bonds have been emitted in? If California were to cease payment of its public debt (something not likely to happen at all, hmm?), would it have to abandon the Dollar?

But here is a thing that has been forbidden for a long time in European treaties: for a country to help financially another one to pay its debts. This rule was introduced by Jacques Delors (a man who knows what being European means) precisely in order to avoid the contagion we are facing currently because of stupid “help” plans all across Europe. Yes: the whole idea of Merkozy’s grand plan to “save Euro” while “helping Greece” (a weird kind of help, starving people, really) is illegal. So in addition to being liars, Mrs Merkel and Mr Sarkozy are delinquents.

So let Greece cease payment of its debt. A few banks will sink: so what? This will create less unemployment than letting our whole economy sink. European States will guarantee citizens’ savings up to 30 k€, that’s one of the other clever European rules (some countries guarantee more). Other people, rich people only, will lose their savings. Will that prevent you from sleeping? Not me. But that could prevent from sleeping a number of friends of Mrs Merkel’s and Mr Sarkozy’s.

And wouldn’t that be a good reason for lying and violating European treaties?

 
 
 
( 55 comments )
(Anonymous) on November 3rd, 2011 07:25 pm (UTC)
Two bad choices
You are right that the fear of the referendum should tell us something about the underlying interests of the actors (France to protect its banks, Germany to protect its export markets).

However, the picture would not be pretty for the Greek state after default, Euro or no Euro. The offer might let Greece move gradually to balance its books while borrowing the money it needs right now. If instead Greece defaults, then future borrowing would be so expensive that Greece probably would not be able to do so. So then Greece could only spend what it makes which would lead to drastic cut backs in its spending and might lead to no spending at all until revenue flows in.

An ugly choice either way, just the kind of thing that should be put directly to Greek voters.
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np237np237 on November 3rd, 2011 07:42 pm (UTC)
Re: Two bad choices
Ah yes, the situation would be difficult for Greeks, but much easier than the current situation. They wouldn’t have to pay the interests on their debt anymore, which would suddenly give them a lot of margin. Of course, they wouldn’t be able to borrow anymore.

Argentina is a good example of a country who got out of shit by ceasing to pay debts.
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Re: Two bad choices - (Anonymous) on November 3rd, 2011 09:51 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Two bad choices - nha [launchpad.net] on November 3rd, 2011 09:59 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Two bad choices - (Anonymous) on November 4th, 2011 07:41 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Two bad choices - nha [launchpad.net] on November 3rd, 2011 09:56 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(Anonymous) on November 3rd, 2011 07:28 pm (UTC)
If Greece defaults on its debts and decides to stop paying them entirely, most of Europe's major banks, not to mention those of a number of other countries, will find themselves suddenly insolvent. Maybe they should be, but that would have cascading effects; they would not have enough money to pay back people who put (large or small) amounts of money in them. Moreover, they would no longer be able to give out loans. The first would lead to widespread personal and public bankruptcy, since even banks which didn't have money invested in Greek bonds have money invested in banks that would go under. It would also lead to the almost total freezing of large capital, preventing people from buying homes, starting businesses, and other desirable things.

Is it worth it to collapse the world economy?
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np237np237 on November 3rd, 2011 07:33 pm (UTC)
Ah of course that’s another apocalyptic scenario that Merkozy and the likes use to scare you.

If a large number of banks collapse (I really don’t believe that all of them will), there will simply be new banks. Mostly public and mutualist banks. Which will start over the useful banking activities.

Actually how could the situation be worse than it is now? Currently banks are not lending anything to businesses, and they are only lending at incredibly high rates to individuals. The economy is already on the verge of collapsing thanks to them.
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(Deleted comment)
Re: Not quite so wrong - (Anonymous) on November 4th, 2011 07:47 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - (Anonymous) on November 3rd, 2011 08:17 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - np237 on November 3rd, 2011 09:30 pm (UTC) (Expand)
okay - (Anonymous) on November 3rd, 2011 10:48 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: okay - np237 on November 3rd, 2011 11:12 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: okay - (Anonymous) on November 4th, 2011 05:36 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - (Anonymous) on November 4th, 2011 05:35 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - np237 on November 4th, 2011 07:21 pm (UTC) (Expand)
José Luis Ricón Fernández de la PuenteJosé Luis Ricón Fernández de la Puente on November 3rd, 2011 07:38 pm (UTC)
Not so easy
True, no one can stop Greece from using euros. But the EU,can, via the ECB, stop lending money to them (Which isn't a bad thing per se, central banks shouldn't even exist), but given the situation, if they choose not to pay their debts (Plainly stealing from those who lent them money), they will still have funding problems.
And of course, bailing out banks and allowing them to generate money out of nowhere is just plainly outrageous, and yes, those who have malinvested should go bankrupt.
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np237np237 on November 3rd, 2011 07:40 pm (UTC)
Re: Not so easy
I’m not sure you understand how the ECB works. It doesn’t lend money to states, only to banks. Using the Euro as money means you rely on the ECB to do so.
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Re: Not so easy - José Luis Ricón Fernández de la Puente on November 3rd, 2011 07:44 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Not so easy - (Anonymous) on November 4th, 2011 08:00 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Not so easy - José Luis Ricón Fernández de la Puente on November 3rd, 2011 07:41 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Not so easy - nha [launchpad.net] on November 3rd, 2011 10:03 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(Anonymous) on November 3rd, 2011 07:48 pm (UTC)
Greece
The thing is: Greece still needs to borrow money to keep the government running. If they write off all their debt without it being a multi-lateral deal then borrowing money is going to be very expensive for them.
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np237np237 on November 3rd, 2011 07:49 pm (UTC)
Re: Greece
So what? Currently they are borrowing money only to pay interests on existing debt.
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Re: Greece - iinavpov on November 3rd, 2011 08:29 pm (UTC) (Expand)
RūdolfsTranzistors on November 3rd, 2011 08:18 pm (UTC)
Even if...
Even if Greece cannot be kicked out of Eurozone, Eurozone can be slashed and Euro with it.
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np237np237 on November 3rd, 2011 09:32 pm (UTC)
Re: Even if...
Eurozone could be slashed because of a country representing 3% of its wealth having trouble? Are you even serious?
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Re: Even if... - Tranzistors on November 3rd, 2011 09:58 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Even if... - (Anonymous) on November 4th, 2011 08:01 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Even if... - (Anonymous) on November 3rd, 2011 10:49 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(Anonymous) on November 3rd, 2011 08:35 pm (UTC)
Thanks for your post, what it says is true but only partially.
And since i am Greek i know very well what is happening but nobody says in media : we live under dictatorship for the last 20 years or so !!! These people at the government have manipulated all laws and managed to bring Greece to its knees and there is almost no way to put them out of power.
They steal money from EU and from Greek people but no-one has ever been brought to justice..EVER. They are traitors and they should be treated as such. Greek people are powerless and the media say nothing of this. We work 12 hours a day for 600 - 800 euros or been unemployed.
The EU leaders know all that but they choose to let it go on. They knew Greece could not handle its dept but they did nothing, all the EU money supposed to help employment was stolen or lost in "black holes".
EU and Greece needs better leaders and fast. And a lot of justice.
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np237np237 on November 3rd, 2011 09:35 pm (UTC)
Funnily enough, Papandreou is now seen as some kind of hero here for standing up to Merkozy and giving voice to the people.

Of course, he should have done that much earlier. He mostly lost the right to be called a socialist when he accepted the original IMF/Europe plan and its drastic cuts to begin with.
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(no subject) - (Anonymous) on November 3rd, 2011 10:01 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - (Anonymous) on November 3rd, 2011 10:07 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Papandreou, his father, and his fathers father - (Anonymous) on November 5th, 2011 01:59 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(Anonymous) on November 3rd, 2011 11:05 pm (UTC)
Wrong about one crucial part
"And nothing in these treaties can force a country to honor their bonds. Greece is a sovereign state and, as such, can choose not to honor its sovereign debt."

I disagree. Quoting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_property:

"Therefore European human rights law recognises the right to peaceful enjoyment of property, makes deprivation of possessions subject to certain conditions, and recognises that States can balance the right to peaceful possession of property against the public interest. The European Court of Human Rights has interpreted 'possessions' to include not only tangible property, but also economic interests, contractual agreements with economic value, compensation claims against the state and public law related claims such as pensions."

So if Greece don't pay up the money they owe me, they are violating my human rights!
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np237np237 on November 3rd, 2011 11:13 pm (UTC)
Re: Wrong about one crucial part
You should be more worried about taxes. Obviously they are violating your human rights every day by every hole.
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Re: Wrong about one crucial part - (Anonymous) on November 4th, 2011 01:57 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Wrong about one crucial part - np237 on November 4th, 2011 08:19 am (UTC) (Expand)
(Anonymous) on November 3rd, 2011 11:56 pm (UTC)
It's not more forbidden !
forbidden "for a country to help financially another one to pay its debts"
If I'm not wrong this was discretly change in March.
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Harvey KellyHarvey Kelly on November 4th, 2011 01:21 am (UTC)
Adam Curtis
Thought you might like this... Greece, Military Dictatorships and Big Business:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/adamcurtis/2011/11/the_ghost_of_the_colonels.html
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(Anonymous) on November 4th, 2011 10:08 am (UTC)
BCE want to save balance sheet of 16 big banks already failed.
It has a clear plan as a true vampire pay it to the European peoples.
With inevitable repercussions for the U.S. financial economy, Asian and South American.

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(Anonymous) on November 4th, 2011 11:09 am (UTC)
hmm...
Ok, Greece is not gonna pay its debts and stay in the Euro zone. Who will lend them money then? Because as far as I know they are not by far able to cover their expenses. No private bank will ever lend them money and I highly doubts ECB or any country would help them.
So your third option is not really an option ;)
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(Anonymous) on November 4th, 2011 02:30 pm (UTC)
Re: hmm...
> Ok, Greece is not gonna pay its debts and stay in the Euro zone. Who will lend them money then? Because as far as I know they are not by far able to cover their expenses. No private bank will ever lend them money and I highly doubts ECB or any country would help them.

Banks and lenders traditionally have very short memories when it comes to sovereign debt. It's much easier for a country to go bankrupt then it is for individuals. This is by design.

If Greece goes bankcrupt within 5-7 years they will have one of the most healthy economies in Europe. The reason for this is they will not have the constant drain of debt and will need to build up their own production and enterprises since they can no longer borrow money to import their goods and services from other countries.

One they go from a net consumer of goods to a net producer then people will line up to try to lend them money.

By that time France and Germany, (and other EU countries) due to their socialist programs, will be were Greece is today.
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Re: hmm... - np237 on November 4th, 2011 02:40 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(Anonymous) on November 4th, 2011 02:26 pm (UTC)

The 'greek bailouts' is not about bailing out the greeks.

It's about bailing out the people that lent them money. It's about bailing out financial institutions in the USA, France, and other countries.

NOT GREECE!

This has nothing to do with helping the Greek people at all and everything to do with helping out the banksters.
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Adrian BunkAdrianBunk on November 4th, 2011 07:34 pm (UTC)
A Greek default would be bad for Germany, France *and* Greece
Your logic has one basic flaw:

Not everything that is good for France and Germany is bad for the Greek people, and vice versa.

There are win-win situations and there are loss-loss situations, and the Greek default would be a loss-loss situation.

Let me look at one statement you made:

"So let Greece cease payment of its debt. A few banks will sink: so what? This will create less unemployment than letting our whole economy sink. European States will guarantee citizens’ savings up to 30 k€"

Question:
Which countries' banks are the ones with the biggest ownership of Greek debt?

Wrong answer:
French banks

Correct answer:
Greek banks

Question:
Which government guarantees the savings of the Greek banks?

Answer:
The Greek government.

If Greek defaults without an EU bailout for their banks *all* Greek banks will immediately be bankrupt (even ones who don't own Greek dept would immediately be killed by the resulting bank run), and any guarantees by a government without money are worthless.

25% of the Greek workforce are employed directly by the Greek government - do you seriously think the Greek government would have enough income to pay their salaries after *all* banks and bank accounts in Greece have been wiped out?
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(Anonymous) on November 5th, 2011 01:49 pm (UTC)
Stop being criminals. Pay taxes and learn from the north.
The Greek economy is much larger than it seems. It is a criminal country where most people prefer crime.

Why should the northern countries pay the lifestyle of the criminal south? Greek and Italy are very close to the typical Mafia movies. Paying with suitcases of cash, lying in court, bribing officials, and handles justice on a private basis.

What the northern countries should learn from this? Be harder on the local and international criminals. See the real threats of corruption and criminal businesses. No one to rich for jail.

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(Anonymous) on November 6th, 2011 01:52 am (UTC)
So, once the banks have collapsed, what do you propose I do with my up-to-30k€? Obviously, I can't put it in another bank, since they're all going to end up failing. Perhaps what you fail to grasp is that if some particularly big banks fail, they can and will take large chunks of the economy with them - starting with all those private businesses that rely on them.
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(Anonymous) on November 6th, 2011 08:39 am (UTC)
The Norwegian Banking Crisis - Resolution policies in the Norwegian crisis
The Norwegian Banking Crisis: http://www.norges-bank.no/no/om/publisert/publikasjoner/skriftserie/33-the-norwegian-banking-crisis/

The Norwegian Government gave money to the banks, but only when the share owners lost their shares. The Government also made sure to kick out the management of the banks.

The Government ended up being the main owner of bank shares, the original share owners lost their investments, and the bank managements got fired. This stabilised the economy without taking away all risk of banking from the investors. The investors lost, the management lost, and so on.

The Greek criminals, corrupt officials, and investors need to take their share of the losses.
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(Anonymous) on November 6th, 2011 09:16 am (UTC)
Dishonest article
The debt to "banks and rich people" has been written down very significiantly. And this is thanks to Angela Merkel who forced this through against a lot of resistance. Not mentioning this is at least a major omission and at worst a lie.
Next: Somehow you make it sound as if this situation is a natural disaster that just happened to Greece. It was not. Greece activly LIED on multiple occasions: to join the Euro and later to disguise the real state of its finances.
Next: Most of the Greek debt is with Greek banks and Greek pension fonds. If Greece defaults, these will be hit hardest.
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np237np237 on November 6th, 2011 09:22 am (UTC)
Re: Dishonest article
I think you’re just not pushing your reasoning far enough. What I am proposing is to let Greece itself deal with the mess they are in. As long as other European countries don’t involve themselves in the Greek debt, the problem will be contained to Greece and they will have to take appropriate (and hard) measures to deal with their problem.

Angela Merkel didn’t involve Germany in this in order to help Greece, but to help German banks. And really, those banks who made risky investments should be let to deal with the losses - that’s what interest rates are for.
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Re: Dishonest article - (Anonymous) on November 6th, 2011 10:57 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Dishonest article - AdrianBunk on November 6th, 2011 01:19 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(Anonymous) on November 10th, 2011 02:33 pm (UTC)
Greeks are fucking bastards who steal money from other EU countries - especially the poor ones like Slovakia. Why should other countries - and poorer ones - sponsor the fucking Greeks who refuse to work?
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