np237 ([info]np237) wrote,
@ 2009-07-06 12:09:00
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Mono and GNOME/Debian Q&A

So many wrong statements were made in the insane troll about Mono, I feel that somehow I need to write some explanations about the current situation. So far the closest post to the reality was made by Tolimar but there are still some inaccuracies in it.

Q: Will Debian squeeze include Mono and Tomboy in the default install?

A: Short answer: yes. Long answer: in the current state of affairs, the GNOME installation media (which, remember, are far from being the only ones) will install tomboy if it is available. This might change depending on the feedback of the installer team and the CD team, but currently there isn’t a compelling reason to change this.

Q: Wasn’t it excluded from lenny because of problems with Mono?

A: There were two reasons to exclude Tomboy from lenny: the size, and the lack of support for some of our architectures. It has nothing to do with anything specific to Mono.

Q: What has changed since lenny that makes this situation evolve?

A: First, the size of Mono packages and of Tomboy itself was considerably reduced, thanks to awesome work from the Debian CLI team. Second, the availability of GNote means that architectures without Mono support can have a stripped down version (although this makes the situation far from ideal for these architectures, see next question).

Q: Why not ship GNote instead by default?

A: GNote was written for bad reasons, without even respecting the GPL copyright requirements. But more importantly, its maintenance model is going to make it only follow behind the Tomboy lead, as any code changes in Tomboy will need to be translated to C++. It also supports less languages and less features. Furthermore, it was introduced in Debian for political reasons, by a maintainer who doesn’t use it and isn’t involved in GNOME maintenance.

Q: Isn’t GNote much smaller?

A: Not really. C++ bindings are larger than CLI bindings, so the only real differences are the size of the Mono interpreter, and the size of translations. In the end, Tomboy with all its dependencies is only 10 MiB larger; that includes 3 times as many translations, and some important functionality.

Q: I disagree with this decision. What can I do to change this?

A: Get yourself seriously involved in either of Tomboy development, GNOME development, Debian GNOME packaging, or the Debian installer. Then, maybe your opinion will mean more than a troll on your pet free software news site.

Q: Tomboy should use Python / Vala / Java / Parrot / Lisp / (insert here your favorite pet language).

A: The developers prefer C#. While I’d personally appreciate if they could switch to a less controversial language like Vala (mainly because it would avoid trolls), I have no right to tell them to do so.

Q: Why is there a difference of treatment between Mono and Java?

A: Because there are about 30 applications using Gtk# in Debian, several of which are among the most popular in their category, while there is exactly 0 useful application using java-gnome.

Q: Is Mono free software?

A: Yes, it is 100% free software. Just as everything in Debian, it was scrutinized by FTP masters who found it is free. Most of the code is under the GPL, LGPL or MIT licenses.

Q: Are there patent issues with Mono?

A: Just like any other software, Mono certainly infringes on thousands of stupid software patents. However the Debian policy with patents is to put them in a trash and pee on them, unless they are actively enforced with reasonable chances to win. The situation of Mono is much more comfortable than (for example) that of MP3 decoders, for which patents are actively enforced; it’s just that they are so lame that we choose to ignore them.

Q: Are there specific dangers coming from Microsoft regarding Mono?

A: Microsoft has claimed to possess patents on some Mono compatibility layers with non-standard Microsoft APIs. Not only this is completely irrelevant to GNOME, since nothing in Gtk# and related stuff uses these compatibility layers, but if you know how things work in the patent world, you already understand this is merely FUD. Microsoft has nothing, but claims to have something in order to scare consumers away from Mono. Actually, not enforcing the patents, while knowing they are violated, would make their case very weak in a patent suit. What their behavior shows is that they are very afraid of Mono. It is stealing customers from their best and most advanced product, their lead development framework. There is absolutely zero chance that they are sustaining Mono from behind, since its very existence is going to make them lose a large amount of money.

Q: Would it make Debian uncomfortable if these patents were starting to be enforced?

A: In the very unlikely situation where Mono would be found to infringe on valid Microsoft patents, we would simply have to remove it from the Debian archive. We are not short from alternatives, and it wouldn’t be long before we had drop-in replacements in Vala or Python.

Q: What is the agenda of Roy Schestowitz, Sam Varghese, Robert Millan and their friends?

A: What they are doing is giving credit to the Microsoft FUD in order to also scare consumers and developers away from Mono. They want to scare them away to other free software environments, but what they achieve is scaring people away to buy Microsoft products instead. It is tempting to conclude, because of the result, that they are employed by Microsoft underhand, but applying Hanlon’s razor, I think they are just incredibly incompetent, to the point where they are dangerous. These people are toxic to the community, and we really need them to shut up. If they ever reach their goal and destroy a great piece of free software like Mono, they will go on and find something else to destroy. Remember, their goal is to SDD: scare, disrupt and destroy. You cannot build anything useful or interesting with such goals.

Q: But Richard Stallman says they are right!

A: RMS is also the guy who wants us to ship non-free documentation. I don’t think RMS has enough connection left to the real world for his opinion to be considered relevant.




(71 comments) - (Post a new comment)

Thanks!
[info]http://openid.daum.net/sanxiyn
2009-07-06 10:44 am UTC (link)
This is a great summary, and I found myself agreeing with you in all points. Nicely done.

(Reply to this)


[info]skx
2009-07-06 11:43 am UTC (link)
"GNote was written for bad reasons, without even respecting the GPL copyright requirements."

Please be more specific.

"Bad reasons" I can infer means that it was written purely to duplicate an existing program in a different implementation language. That's either bad, or necessary, depending on what you think of Mono.

But you suggest GNote doesn't respect the GPL, and so I wonder in what sense you mean that? Certainly the code is available and open. I do hope you're not conflating the reimplementation in some fashion..

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]np237
2009-07-06 11:57 am UTC (link)
The GNote author did not even keep the copyright notices from Tomboy. I don’t know whether this has been fixed in the meantime, but that tells a lot.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]skx
2009-07-06 11:59 am UTC (link)
Perhaps I'm missing something obvious, and if so you could point it out to me.

But :

Tomboy = Note application written in Mono.
GNote = Near-Identical clone written in not-Mono

Given that the implementation languages are different I'm struggling to see how there could be any applicable copyright issues.

(Unless you're refering to things such as icons, media files, etc. Clearly the code is in a different language and even if the end result is look-and-feel identical there can't be any actual infringement.)

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]np237, 2009-07-06 12:02 pm UTC
What copyright violation? - (Anonymous), 2009-07-06 01:10 pm UTC
Re: What copyright violation? - [info]np237, 2009-07-06 01:16 pm UTC
Re: What copyright violation? - (Anonymous), 2009-07-06 01:28 pm UTC
Re: What copyright violation? - [info]np237, 2009-07-06 01:37 pm UTC
Re: What copyright violation? - (Anonymous), 2009-07-06 01:40 pm UTC
Re: What copyright violation? - (Anonymous), 2009-07-06 02:54 pm UTC
Re: What copyright violation? - (Anonymous), 2009-07-06 03:28 pm UTC
Re: What copyright violation? - [info]np237, 2009-07-06 06:58 pm UTC
Re: What copyright violation? - [info]hub_, 2009-07-06 04:50 pm UTC
Re: What copyright violation? - [info]np237, 2009-07-06 07:16 pm UTC
Re: What copyright violation? - [info]hub_, 2009-07-06 08:14 pm UTC
Re: What copyright violation? - (Anonymous), 2009-07-06 09:37 pm UTC
Re: What copyright violation? - [info]np237, 2009-07-06 10:29 pm UTC
Re: What copyright violation? - (Anonymous), 2009-07-15 04:09 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2009-07-06 01:45 pm UTC
Not a reimplementation. - (Anonymous), 2009-07-06 09:38 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2009-07-06 10:50 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2009-07-06 03:27 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2009-07-06 05:07 pm UTC
errors in the FAQ
[info]joe_buck
2009-07-06 04:45 pm UTC (link)
I've just downloaded the gnome 0.5 source tarball. It contains appropriate copyright statements and credit for the Tomboy developers in the AUTHORS file. There is no GPL violation, and no violation of moral rights either. Please correct your accusations and don't make them again. An apology would be nice as well. In any case, I don't see why it's evil for one program to clone another when that's what the free software/open source community does all the time.

As for claims about code size, for a user who is using no other Mono programs besides tomboy, he/she would save disk and memory space by using gnote. For a user who is also using other Mono programs, there would be little savings. The point is, a user who doesn't need Mono for anything else would be better off with gnote. Since the Debian default install, with the gnome meta-package selected, will install no other Mono programs, gnote would have been a good choice, not because Mono is evil, but for solid technical reasons.



(Reply to this) (Parent)

default install?
(Anonymous)
2009-07-06 12:29 pm UTC (link)
The way that sounds is that you'll just run the installer and end up with Mono. This isn't really the case, and I wish this were being made more clear. I'm not against Mono, but it makes it sound like those people using Debian for servers (No Xorg) will end up with Mono.

Saying that the default Desktop task (which installs gnome on some of the media), or the "gnome" package including Mono might be more accurate.

What would be the chances of a "gnome-without-mono" metapackage to satisfy the complainers?

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: default install?
[info]np237
2009-07-06 12:32 pm UTC (link)
Same answer as those who want a "gnome-without-games", "gnome-without-transmission" or "gnome-without-whatever-is-against-my-religion": use gnome-desktop-environment or gnome-core.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: default install? - (Anonymous), 2009-07-06 01:10 pm UTC
Re: default install? - [info]np237, 2009-07-06 01:13 pm UTC
don't install non trust-able kludge by default
(Anonymous)
2009-07-06 01:23 pm UTC (link)
The user is free to install non-free software (too bad for him). Likewise, the user should have the choice to install non trust-able kludges if he wants...
Many coders/people in our free software realm is concerned about the mono kludge. Then the most reasonable option is to leave that thing available in repositories but in no case it should be forced upon users. When such vast amount of brain damaged code raises that much of a concern, do not install it by default. Its benefits over other alternatives are not balancing its the negative perception/drawbacks. That's common sense.

As far as I'm concerned I would feel better with C++, but I do think we should stick to C. I do not hesitate to sacrifice the pseudo-comfort of a high level language in regards of the complexity/size of code it forces into the software stack.

(Reply to this)

RMS wha?
(Anonymous)
2009-07-06 01:57 pm UTC (link)
"RMS is also the guy who wants us to ship non-free documentation"
I agree with most of your points, Joss, but you'll have to explain that one to me.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: RMS wha?
[info]np237
2009-07-06 02:05 pm UTC (link)
RMS promotes use of invariant sections in GNU documentation. These make the documentation clearly non-free, and they are excluded from Debian.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: RMS wha? - (Anonymous), 2009-07-06 06:52 pm UTC
Re: RMS wha? - [info]np237, 2009-07-06 07:01 pm UTC
Re: RMS wha? - (Anonymous), 2009-07-06 08:10 pm UTC

[info]hub_
2009-07-06 02:19 pm UTC (link)
Since you seem to know everything about why Gnote was written, why was it written for?

Then we can discuss if it is a bad reason. But give the reason first.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]np237
2009-07-06 02:28 pm UTC (link)
An April fool’s joke?

Nah, that would actually be a good reason.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]hub_, 2009-07-06 02:34 pm UTC

[info]jmtd
2009-07-07 10:36 am UTC (link)
Hubert, out of the context of this flamewar, why did you write Gnote? I'm very curious: I can't find your reasons anywhere, and there are lots of people putting words in your mouth, so to speak.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]hub_, 2009-07-07 04:55 pm UTC

(Anonymous)
2009-07-06 02:34 pm UTC (link)
>> However the Debian policy with patents is to put them in a trash and pee on them

This stream of energy can be channeled in the direction of the US Supreme Court which will address (software) patents later on this year. If you (the reader) care about (eg) mono and having users/devs/biz keep their rights and choices, you should try to write something up for the event.

This online comment talks about latches and weakening your case by allowing patent infringements: http://forum.freeadvice.com/patents-104/statute-limitations-patent-infringement-349619.html . The news is both good and bad.

We know people seek damages way after they know of violations (or else they keep their eyes/ears shut). This has happened many times before, in fact, I think it is standard practice. With respect to Microsoft, some have been saying that the reason they have not replied to those seeking a license is because of bureaucracies. That's an excuse for them to have lagged.

The comment does suggest that in some cases the burden of justification shifts dramatically to the plaintiff if they go beyond 6 years. This is good but bad because it still leaves so much room open, especially if plaintiff+proxies have truckloads of patents being churned out each year. You always have new patents available for every one that becomes difficult to enforce in court and win.

This patent http://www.freepatentsonline.com/7017162.html is an example of one where you might get into trouble as you start to expand your use of mono into application domains (even if you avoid aspdotnet since this patents attempts to cover other similar uses). It shows that the threats lie beyond using mono itself to actually doing interesting things while using it.

So Microsoft gets a bunch of years lead time over its competitors. They can sit on the patents and selectively choose to use them here or there.

It might make sense for Canonical to be aggressive and public about their use of mono and force Microsoft's hand, but there is still an awful lot of advantages, time, and FUD that Microsoft gains when you go play on their turf.

Hopefully the SCOTUS will neuter Microsoft. If not, at least mono devs will be able to move to C++, Java, vala, and many other things.

>> It is stealing customers from their best and most advanced product, their lead development framework.

I think it is a great idea to go after MSdotnet developers, but growing the dotnet market helps the company most heavily vested in dotnet and current provider of the most functionality around dotnet. They have many years to work with *for each patent they hold.* The patents might not affect some core software devs directly, but growing mindshare means many customers (employing in-house devs) will get letters and offers saying they should move to the protected dotnet or face litigation for infringing on many patents. The customers will have a lot invested in dotnet (making a move to java or something else uncomfortable and costlier than ideal), and many will not risk a huge lawsuit on what will be clear violations (since the patent descriptions and actual technology are so similar).

So anyone trying to move into Microsoft's market (as Canonical might like to do) while using dotnet/clones will have their work cut out for them in terms of convincing customers to avoid Microsoft. Will Canonical indemnify all of their customers? How much leverage will they yield and how costly will it be to go up against Microsoft on dotnet patents? It's painful to fight a strong enemy on their terms. The end result you might eventually realize is that you should back off or deal under terms very favorable to them. It's one thing for a large company to fight off a few patents at a time. It's another to have potentially thousands to fight off at once and coming at you from many different proxies.

Of course, the situation improves a lot if software patents lose their legal status.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


(Anonymous)
2009-07-06 09:39 pm UTC (link)
> Hopefully the SCOTUS will neuter Microsoft.

Who cares about what happens to Microsoft? Focus on the real threats from companies that profit solely from their patent portfolio and then worry about a perceived threat from Redmond.

> Of course, the situation improves a lot if software patents lose their legal status.

The problem with this sentiment is that it is extremely short sighted, _all_ of patent law needs to be reformed, not just software patents.

It is your choice, focus on a relatively narrow portion of patent law that doesn't really affect a significant portion of the planet, or change the entire law so US companies can no longer sue subsistence farmers for saving seeds and pharmaceuticals can no longer artificially inflate drug prices.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2009-07-07 06:28 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2009-07-07 06:29 pm UTC
Microsoft patent you are referring to?
(Anonymous)
2009-07-06 02:42 pm UTC (link)
Do you have the patent application/patent granted number you are talking about?

Remember that infringing one claim might be enough to violate a patent.

(Reply to this)

Patents and the real world.
(Anonymous)
2009-07-06 04:53 pm UTC (link)
“but if you know how things work in the patent world, you already understand this is merely FUD. Microsoft has nothing, but claims to have something in order to scare consumers away from Mono. Actually, not enforcing the patents, while knowing they are violated, would make their case very weak in a patent suit [1]. What their behavior shows is that they are very afraid of Mono. It is stealing customers from their best and most advanced product, their lead development framework. There is absolutely zero chance that they are sustaining Mono from behind, since its very existence is going to make them lose a large amount of money [2].”

I'm afraid you clearly know very little if anything about “how things work in the patent world”. [1] is simply nonsense but relatively unimportant. [2] is also nonsense but very important: firstly, Microsoft /is/ actively involved in assisting the development of Mono (someone even suggested to me elsewhere - incorrectly but at least plausibly (unlike your non-enforcement conjecture) - that this would provide the wider community of Mono users with a promissory estoppel defence. Secondly, the idea that Microsoft considers that Mono is stealing its customers is ironic in the extreme. The more Mono developers and (esp.) users there are, the happier Microsoft will become: it is, partly, *Microsoft's property* - and that is the whole point!

RMS understands all this of course and I feel compelled to suggest to you that it would be wiser to (attempt to) stand on the shoulders of one of the giants of Free Software (the one who foresaw the insidious damage software patents might do possibly before you were even born) than through ignorance and hubris bring Debian into disrepute with those of us old enough and smart enough to know a thing or two about patent law, patent economics and the Phelpsian business strategies being played out here.

PL Hayes.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Patents and the real world.
[info]np237
2009-07-06 07:07 pm UTC (link)
Here you go:
- Scare people with a movie-plot threat.
- Disrupt the community by spreading nonsense.
- Destroy the software eventually, just because you don’t like it.

I think we have a pattern.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Patents and the real world. - (Anonymous), 2009-07-06 11:05 pm UTC
Well put
[info]cjcollier
2009-07-06 09:51 pm UTC (link)
full disclosure: someone put me in the credits for a number of mono releases

Thanks for the FAQ. This rings true to me, for what that's worth.

I posted IRC logs a while ago from an attempt to have a rational discussion with the #boycottnovell channel. My web server needs a swift kick in the bum, but after I do so, you can see the logs here:

http://wp.colliertech.org/cj/?p=237

google cached them here:

http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:ViGa-OFLaQQJ:wp.colliertech.org/cj/%3Fp%3D237

(Reply to this)


[info]cjcollier
2009-07-07 12:29 am UTC (link)
Looks like you'll need to update the FAQ:

http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2009/Jul-06.html

(Reply to this)

Some comments
[info]urban_terrorist
2009-07-16 01:25 am UTC (link)

Q: What is the agenda of Roy Schestowitz, Sam Varghese, Robert Millan and their friends?

A: What they are doing is giving credit to the Microsoft FUD in order to also scare consumers and developers away from Mono. They want to scare them away to other free software environments, but what they achieve is scaring people away to buy Microsoft products instead. It is tempting to conclude, because of the result, that they are employed by Microsoft underhand, but applying Hanlon’s razor, I think they are just incredibly incompetent, to the point where they are dangerous. These people are toxic to the community, and we really need them to shut up. If they ever reach their goal and destroy a great piece of free software like Mono, they will go on and find something else to destroy. Remember, their goal is to SDD: scare, disrupt and destroy. You cannot build anything useful or interesting with such goals.


Or we see an issue that you are blind to. As has been pointed out many times, there are legal issues with the inclusion of Mono and applications that require Mono in the default install. This could leave Red Hat, Canonical, and the other companies who support a distribution open to lawsuit for Patent Infringement. Leaving the applications that use Mono in the repositories, where the end user makes the decision, would probably free the supporting company from legal liability.

Q: But Richard Stallman says they are right!

A: RMS is also the guy who wants us to ship non-free documentation. I don’t think RMS has enough connection left to the real world for his opinion to be considered relevant.


I trust Stallman's judgement more than I trust yours.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Some comments
[info]np237
2009-07-16 08:03 am UTC (link)
Leaving the applications that use Mono in the repositories, where the end user makes the decision, would probably free the supporting company from legal liability.

BWAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAAAAA!!!!!

Man, you’re so freakingly ridicule and clueless, I can’t breathe!

I trust Stallman's judgement more than I trust yours.

That’s your call. But RMS doesn’t get to decide what goes in distributions.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Some comments - [info]urban_terrorist, 2009-07-16 08:53 pm UTC
Re: Some comments - [info]np237, 2009-07-16 10:53 pm UTC
Re: Some comments - [info]urban_terrorist, 2009-07-17 12:09 am UTC
Re: Some comments - [info]np237, 2009-07-16 10:55 pm UTC
legal issues - [info]urban_terrorist, 2009-07-18 09:42 pm UTC
Re: legal issues - [info]sanjuuro, 2009-08-01 02:10 pm UTC
Re: legal issues - [info]urban_terrorist, 2009-08-01 11:45 pm UTC
Re: legal issues - [info]sanjuuro, 2009-08-01 11:51 pm UTC
Re: legal issues - [info]urban_terrorist, 2009-08-02 01:15 am UTC
Re: legal issues - [info]sanjuuro, 2009-08-02 02:04 am UTC
Re: Some comments - [info]urban_terrorist, 2009-07-16 08:53 pm UTC
Re: Some comments
[info]cjcollier
2009-11-21 08:54 pm UTC (link)

This could leave Red Hat, Canonical, and the other companies who support a distribution open to lawsuit for Patent Infringement.


Are you talking about Wine? Lame? VLC? Samba? Mesa?

Oh, right. None of those are worth considering.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Some comments - [info]urban_terrorist, 2009-11-23 01:23 am UTC
Re: Some comments - [info]cjcollier, 2009-11-23 01:55 am UTC
Re: Some comments - [info]urban_terrorist, 2009-12-21 10:36 pm UTC
Re: Some comments - [info]cjcollier, 2009-12-23 05:10 pm UTC
Re: Some comments - [info]urban_terrorist, 2009-12-23 06:54 pm UTC
pointles software?
(Anonymous)
2009-07-16 06:44 am UTC (link)
i don't need a note taking app, tomboy/gnote, they are useless applications that i don't want in my default install.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: pointles software?
[info]np237
2009-07-16 08:04 am UTC (link)
If you don’t need it, don’t use it.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


(71 comments) - (Post a new comment)

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