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12 June 2009 @ 11:25 pm
Regarding Mono in the default install  


Unlike what you are suggesting, I’m not the one who decides what goes into the default Squeeze installation. There is most likely going to be a small discussion with the debian-installer team, like the one we went through for Lenny and which turned out very constructive. Saying that I “decided that Mono must be part of the default desktop install” is so freakingly untrue that it leaves me somehow speechless.

Of course, the real discussion around including Mono by default is not about Tomboy. If they don’t want of it, the debian-installer team just has to include GNote in the gnome-desktop task to get it by default instead of Tomboy; note that this is possible since I added an or dependency, precisely as you suggested. No, the applications that are going to make a difference are things like GNOME Do and F-Spot. If we want to include these cool applications that have no real alternative (even proprietary), this will include the Mono stack as well. And there are no stripped down C++ versions of those.

Let’s get back to Tomboy. The reason why it is now a dependency of the gnome metapackage is the same reason why upstream GNOME included it in their default desktop release. It is not to bow before Microsoft or Novell, as you and your paranoid friends seem to think; it is because professional-grade note-taking is a vital application to an important share of our users.

Everyone working in a corporate environment, with many projects to manage with several clients, meetings every other day, and random thoughts to write somewhere, needs to manage notes. Some use random pieces of paper scattered on their desk. Some use notebooks. Some use Emacs. Some write formal proceedings for each of their actions. It turns out that none of these methods are comparable to Tomboy in terms of efficiency.

As such, I’m wondering whether you are actually using the software you packaged. Your writings suggest that you don’t need an application such as GNote. Which means that, consistently with your other actions in the project, you only packaged it to push your pointless political agenda, not to do something useful for our users. That also explains why you proved to be so clueless while packaging it.

And I am sorry to inform you that the Project does not give a shit of your political agenda. The reason why Tomboy was not included in the default Lenny installation is not because of stupid software patents. If we gave a shit of inapplicable software patents, we wouldn’t be shipping MP3 decoding software by default. If we gave a shit, we wouldn’t ship Mono in main, regardless of what is in the default installation. We don’t give a shit of where is Mono coming from, as long as it is free software. As Jo explained, we don’t even give a shit of what Mono is, it just happens to be a dependency for Tomboy. No, the reason why Tomboy was not here by default is simply because its dependency stack was too big for some installation media. Now, the Debian Mono team managed to reduce a bit the installation size, and the availability of GNote as an alternative is giving a last-resort choice that will be much smaller.

Oh, and just a side note: I was going to work on the remaining bits of GNOME 2.26 in Debian this week-end. You just convinced me to watch anime on my home cinema instead. With new seasons of Higurashi and Haruhi Suzumiya coming around, this is perfect timing.

(Anonymous) on June 12th, 2009 09:58 pm (UTC)
It is really hard being you, isn't it?
np237np237 on June 12th, 2009 10:06 pm (UTC)
Re: o.O
I don’t think you can imagine.
(Anonymous) on June 12th, 2009 11:55 pm (UTC)
Holy crap...
I'm speechless with your taste in Anime. Haruhi? What the heck?!
np237np237 on June 13th, 2009 08:58 am (UTC)
Re: Holy crap...
D’uh, I found someone who doesn’t like Haruhi Suzumiya. I could generally associate this with a lack of geekness, but the fact you are posting here dismisses this possibility. So, what’s your problem with such a great anime?
Re: Holy crap... - (Anonymous) on June 13th, 2009 10:23 am (UTC) (Expand)
(Anonymous) on June 13th, 2009 12:26 am (UTC)
Mono, the soap opera
I'm not too fond of the Mono ambiguity as well, but I think this is too much of a soap opera. People: if you think there's a problem with Mono, then just don't use it. Let others use their Free Software. I'm from Europe, I don't have any kind of problems with software patents (at least, not yet) and I want Mono to be available if I need it.
ext_193649 on June 13th, 2009 01:09 am (UTC)
No need to swear over trolls it just welcomes them to come back and bark again =D
ext_176403 on June 13th, 2009 01:27 am (UTC)
Re: =)
Yeah but it feels so good when someone with authority does it.
kdu124 on June 13th, 2009 02:21 am (UTC)
Mono always gets people riled up. I am more perplexed by the fact a note taking app need 40 MB of dependencies to install.
(Anonymous) on June 13th, 2009 03:16 am (UTC)
on seeking discussion
You only seem to be interested in discussing things when challenged. It makes one think.

Anyway, a few things that might be useful to clarify:

a) You're not qualified to speak on behalf of the project (like you do on this post)
b) I didn't even mention patents in my post
c) Instead, I made other points which you have ignored
d) You insult me and call me a troll, but you're the only one who's been disrespectful
np237np237 on June 13th, 2009 08:27 am (UTC)
Re: on seeking discussion
Actually, I’m not interested in discussing with you. You don’t want useful discussion, you don’t want to improve Debian; you just want to share your religious views.

a) I don’t need to speak on behalf of the project, I just tried to show how your religious views cannot apply to its current state.
b) Please. I know where you’re coming from.
c) Too bad.
d) Invoking a bunch of retards from boycottnovell.com so that they throw stones at someone is respectful? I’ll try to think about it. Or not.
Re: on seeking discussion - (Anonymous) on July 7th, 2009 08:43 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Eugenia Loli-Querueugenia_loli on June 13th, 2009 06:10 am (UTC)
Say it like it is
Just like you said. These people who hate Mono are just overreacting over a political agenda, and that has no place in software.
(Anonymous) on June 13th, 2009 07:37 am (UTC)
Re: Say it like it is
If you think politics has no place in software, then you should stop using Free software because, software freedom is fundamentally a political goal. Patent threats are a serious issue. You cannot wish them away.
Re: Say it like it is - np237 on June 13th, 2009 08:05 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Say it like it is - (Anonymous) on June 13th, 2009 08:23 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Say it like it is - (Anonymous) on June 16th, 2009 02:33 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Say it like it is - kdu124 on June 13th, 2009 03:11 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Say it like it is - kdu124 on June 13th, 2009 03:49 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Say it like it is - ext_110829 on June 13th, 2009 04:52 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Say it like it is - (Anonymous) on June 13th, 2009 11:19 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Say it like it is - (Anonymous) on June 16th, 2009 03:05 am (UTC) (Expand)
(Anonymous) on June 13th, 2009 06:44 am (UTC)
Hey whats your salery for this -Hey we all love Mono- Posting? Did Novell or Microsoft paid you?

There is _no_ need for Mono. There is _no_ need for this dependency in an default installation.
There is _no_ odds for Mono.
np237np237 on June 13th, 2009 08:21 am (UTC)
Re: Mono-Fanboy
I somehow feel sorry for you. Were you subject to ablation of the frontal cortex at a young age?
Re: Mono-Fanboy - (Anonymous) on June 13th, 2009 12:09 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Mono-Fanboy - ext_110829 on June 13th, 2009 04:53 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Mono-Fanboy - (Anonymous) on June 13th, 2009 05:37 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(Anonymous) on June 13th, 2009 06:54 am (UTC)
Pulseaudio, similary

I have a similar concern regarding to pulseaudio.
It is a complete failure and I had to remove it in order to get sound work properly
(with good old ALSA).
Is it going to be mandatory in next GNOME releases?
np237np237 on June 13th, 2009 08:08 am (UTC)
Re: Pulseaudio, similary
PulseAudio is completely different; the problems people have with it (and I have my share of issues with it) are purely technical.

We may ship PA by default in Squeeze, but we try to make it possible to work without it. We currently have patches for gnome-settings-daemon and gnome-media that keep a reasonable level of functionality when PA is not started.
Re: Pulseaudio, similary - (Anonymous) on June 13th, 2009 09:04 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(Anonymous) on June 13th, 2009 06:56 am (UTC)
I'm just a mere Debian user, but this stuff always pisses me off.

Thanks for doing the work of packaging Gnome. Even if I don't use Gnome anymore I very much appreciate it, it's good to have a full DE installed to demo Debian GNU/Linux to people who think "it's too hard to use".
(Anonymous) on June 13th, 2009 10:52 am (UTC)
Changed yer mind eh?

your words:

"tomboy: very nice app, but controversial since it brings the full Mono stack, so we don’t make it part of gnome-desktop-environment."

somehow, this exact time last year your good self felt felt mono was too bloated/too MS (?) for inclusion..
np237np237 on June 13th, 2009 11:01 am (UTC)
Re: Changed yer mind eh?
Looking at the bunch of trolls who jump on anyone talking about Mono: don’t you think it’s still controversial?

Also, I don’t follow the twisted reasoning that lead you to think I have changed my mind: tomboy is still not a dependency of gnome-desktop-environment.
Re: Changed yer mind eh? - (Anonymous) on June 13th, 2009 11:10 am (UTC) (Expand)
(Anonymous) on June 13th, 2009 11:55 am (UTC)
Bloat & Choice
Why does a desktop environment *REQUIRE* these applications ?

Personally I'd like the choice.

I have no use for FSpot, Tomboy, "Do" and Evolution.

These are *APPLICATIONS* and forcing me to install them is, to my mind, antithetical to the open source ideal.

Yes I know I *can* remove them, but doing so breaks most standard Gnome installations and results in systems that cannot use the standard patches and upgrades as supplied by the relevant distribution.

So tell me whats so damn important about FORCING users into installing software that they do not want, or have no earthly use for ?

Where is this vaunted "choice" that open source software is supposed to bring ?

If Gnome want to bundle applications then BUILD A GNOME SPECIFIC DISTRO, and stop forcing us to install software.
np237np237 on June 13th, 2009 12:10 pm (UTC)
Re: Bloat & Choice
Nothing forces you to install them. The gnome and gnome-desktop-environment packages are just metapackages. Nothing will break if you remove them. If you don’t like the default selection, just make another one.

Choice is for people who know what they want. There is no place for choice in the default package selection.
Re: Bloat & Choice - (Anonymous) on June 13th, 2009 12:23 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Bloat & Choice - np237 on June 13th, 2009 12:32 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Bloat & Choice - (Anonymous) on June 13th, 2009 12:43 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Bloat & Choice - (Anonymous) on June 13th, 2009 06:10 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Bloat & Choice - (Anonymous) on June 13th, 2009 07:59 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Evolution - urban_terrorist on June 13th, 2009 04:30 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Evolution - np237 on June 13th, 2009 04:56 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Evolution - (Anonymous) on June 13th, 2009 05:44 pm (UTC) (Expand)
The Evolution Project - urban_terrorist on June 13th, 2009 11:57 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(Anonymous) on June 13th, 2009 12:15 pm (UTC)
Debian and patents
IMHO it is not true that Debian does not "give a shit" about software patents. Although many patent-encumbered decoders are redistributed with Debian Main, most if not all patent-encumbered encoders are missing, e.g. there is not one mp3 encoder in Debian Main (such as lame) and no H264 encoder.
Debian seems to assume that it will not be sued if it only redistributes patent-encumbered decoders. With regard to such encoders they act very differently.

(Anonymous) on June 13th, 2009 12:41 pm (UTC)
Re: Debian and patents
The rule of thumb is "avoid actively enforced patents".
Re: Debian and patents - (Anonymous) on June 13th, 2009 03:00 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Debian and patents - nchip on June 14th, 2009 09:38 am (UTC) (Expand)
Wayne Boreanurban_terrorist on June 13th, 2009 04:26 pm (UTC)
Bush League Apps
Um, you think that GnomeDo, FSpot, and Tomboy are cool applications? What have you been smoking?

Cool is The Gimp. Cool is the Linux Kernel. Cool is Gnome. Cool is Firefox/IceWeasel. GnomeDo, Fspot, and Tomboy are bush league apps. Yes, there are a few people who use them, but they don't make a huge difference to the lives of millions, whereas the others do.

As for "Professional Grade Note-taking", Zotero blows Tomboy out of the water. It's a lot more useful than Tomboy.

Let's face it. Tomboy is a waste if disk space. If the Tomboy team wants to keep developing it, that's their right. It's a free world. That doesn't stop me from thinking that they are wasting their time.
np237np237 on June 13th, 2009 04:54 pm (UTC)
Re: Bush League Apps
Zotero is a free, easy-to-use Firefox extension…

Sorry, I stopped reading here, and I’m too busy laughing now.
Cool - urban_terrorist on June 13th, 2009 11:07 pm (UTC) (Expand)
What were you smoking? - urban_terrorist on June 13th, 2009 11:09 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Bush League Apps - (Anonymous) on June 13th, 2009 11:09 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(Anonymous) on June 13th, 2009 06:34 pm (UTC)
Joss, why do you think it's so painfully obvious to practically everyone involved in Debian that you're a selfrighteous prick?
Please, do some effort to keep the default debian install lean and mean as it is right now, or you will alienate 80% of its userbase.
If people want Ubuntu, they will use Ubuntu.
Debian has no need for Mono, or C#, or any of the bloated nonsense that you're trying to sneak into the default desktop install.
If people use it, they can install it themselves, because they are in the minitory.
The majority of the Debian userbase has no use for patent-encumbered microsoft-wannabe software.
np237np237 on June 13th, 2009 06:48 pm (UTC)
Re: Joss...
I don’t think that 80% of our userbase are retards who dismiss applications because their dependencies are not compatible with their religious views.

The installation will be lean and clean when we will stop shipping two web browsers by default, and more generally when we can finally get rid of the Gecko crap.

I’m not trying to sneak in anything. In short: get a life.
Re: Joss... - (Anonymous) on June 13th, 2009 11:06 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Joss... - kdu124 on June 14th, 2009 12:36 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Joss... - np237 on June 14th, 2009 09:15 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Joss... - kdu124 on June 14th, 2009 02:35 pm (UTC) (Expand)
This guy has a leadership position in Debian?! - (Anonymous) on June 14th, 2009 11:20 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: This guy has a leadership position in Debian?! - (Anonymous) on June 15th, 2009 01:55 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: This guy has a leadership position in Debian?! - (Anonymous) on June 15th, 2009 02:48 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(Anonymous) on June 13th, 2009 10:36 pm (UTC)
Chewing bubble gum
Will somebody kick Joss a** already? Thank you.
(Anonymous) on June 13th, 2009 10:54 pm (UTC)
"Everyone working in a corporate environment, with many projects to manage with several clients, meetings every other day, and random thoughts to write somewhere, needs to manage notes. Some use random pieces of paper scattered on their desk. Some use notebooks. Some use Emacs. Some write formal proceedings for each of their actions. It turns out that none of these methods are comparable to Tomboy in terms of efficiency."

Is this a contest on making obvious remarks? What does this have to do with the discussion? Robert was right (at least) on one thing: you avoid the discussion to a great extent.
np237np237 on June 14th, 2009 09:18 am (UTC)
But the funny thing is that there is nothing to discuss, and that you bunch of trolls are making a mountain of fuss out of absolutely nothing.
Really...trolls?! - (Anonymous) on June 15th, 2009 02:56 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(Anonymous) on June 14th, 2009 12:25 am (UTC)
Rinse and Repeat
1. Accuse opposing position of having a poltical agenda.

2. Remain ignorant of anything else said.

3. If no one pulls up the carpet no termites will be found.

I think that covers this.

Hey, before you start packaging up software where you have no idea whatsoever why people have an issue with it maybe you should actually ask the Mono people what the situation is regarding RAND licensing, and particularly royalty free terms, when it comes to anything covered by the core ECMA stuff? Maybe you should ask Miguel where this letter is guaranteeing royalty free terms and ask what impact that has on open source software?

(Anonymous) on June 15th, 2009 05:31 pm (UTC)
Why are you labeling people as trolls?
We're all users expressing our opinions. A lot of individual users have legitimate concerns about Mono being a patent issue as dependency on it progresses. The Microsoft Novell deal isn't very clear about non-Novell users. This is a concern for me, a long time Debian user. There are people who have businesses relying on Debian and legal vagueness of Mono is very unsettling. A lot of small businesses cannot be hassled by litigations in the future. They simply can't afford it.
np237np237 on June 15th, 2009 07:28 pm (UTC)
Re: Why are you labeling people as trolls?
If you have legal concerns with Mono, raise them to the FTP masters. Not to me.
(Anonymous) on June 15th, 2009 07:27 pm (UTC)
Bug report not answered
For the record. I personally don't care for Mono.

But it's clear that the maintainer has an an agenda to push, and that's something that will ultimately harm Debian, which is why I need to reply.

The bug report asked:
"Currently Program X is optional. Program X is not available on all platforms. Please make Program Y optional on platforms where Program Y is not available."

The bug report response was:
"Make either Program X or Program Y required."

Nothing in the request says anything about changing the requirement and the original wishlist suggester even states that this is a regression, but the maintainer ignored all logic to push his political agenda. When pressed that this would cause a regression, namely forcing the meta package to be removed, the maintainer said this is not a problem this has no effect. This of course is nonsense since once you uninstall the meta package, you give up any possibility of doing a simple upgrade when the next release of GNOME comes. Like it or not, the metapackage is important, but this technical fact too is ignored.

In case the maintainer doesn't have a clue what the proper response to this situation is, let me give you three options:
(1) Convince the original submitter to update his request so it matches your actions.
(2) Reject the suggestion and roll back the old behavior and mark the bug "WONTFIX".
(3) Reject the suggestion and roll back the old behavior. Then submit *another* bug report with your implementation. Have the bug reviewed as per Debian's conflict of interest guidelines, and if approved, implement the fix.

There. You have three possible solutions out of the mess you created, two of which result in your implementation. If you ignore all three, then it's clear that politics is truly at the heart of your motivations and all calls for an apology are valid.

np237np237 on June 15th, 2009 07:29 pm (UTC)
Re: Bug report not answered
4) Do as I see fit, since I am one of the maintainers for the package.
Re: Bug report not answered - (Anonymous) on June 16th, 2009 02:30 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(Anonymous) on June 15th, 2009 07:40 pm (UTC)
uhm...debian has an agenda
(Anonymous) on June 16th, 2009 08:00 am (UTC)
I don't get what the fuss is all about here...

1) So what if Mono is getting included in the default Gnome installation. Either uninstall it or take the time to build your own custom Gnome install without using the metapackages.

2) So what if this requires an additional 50MB of installation data, who the hell cares about that amount of data nowadays anyway?

3) So what if YOU have legal issues with Mono, if it's not a problem for Debian, it's not a problem for me, for the rest of you, see point 1!

And to all you paranoid conspiracy/political/whatever a**holes, get a life! Instead of bashing onto volunteers that made Debian to what it is today, if you can do better, then do, if you can't, then shut up. Oh... and Haruhi roxxx ^_^
ext_131544 on June 18th, 2009 05:52 pm (UTC)
Wow. Trolls aplenty round here!

Josselin, you do a lot of work for debian. Thanks for all your hard work.

I use Tomboy, I don't particularly like Mono, but I hold my nose knowing the the dsfg has me covered. Debian wouldn't allow it in if it weren't free enough for me. I like Tomboy - I use it all the time, so count me among those users who demand it be in the default install.

Thanks again Josselin!
(Anonymous) on June 25th, 2009 10:18 pm (UTC)
F-spot and Gnome Do have no real alternatives! WTF???
I don't have a "big" computer at the moment were I can try recent versions of those applications, but last time I tried F-spot it sucked and from the description of GNOME Do, it doesn't seem to Do anything ground breaking.

Judging from F-spots current feature list it still has no feature I have not already customised GQView to do at some point in time. Because in GQView you can create shortcuts to any program you can use from the command line or to any script in your favorite language. If I remember correct, that kind of customisation is really complicated to do in F-spot and I could never get it to do all those things I really needed... and on top of that, it was sloooooooooow, resource hungry and buggy.

What is the big advantage of GNOME Do to, say, GNOME Launch Box. An integrated dock? I don't like docks, or menues, thats why I use launchers (or the terminal). It might be a good idea for users that have to be lured to use a command line, though. As a sidenote: I still find Quicksilver incredibly complicated to use, and I learned to use the UNIX command line at the same point in time and I thought it was much easer to use and learn, not as fancy looking though. PlugIns? Hellooo, you can use any application or any script from most Linux launchers. How is this any different? Are there some kind of integration between the plug-ins and the dock-part, or whats the big deal? Other docks can use plug-ins to, you know.

I actually prefer the interface of Tomboy(*) to Zotero, but thats because I only make very simple personal notes without any references to outside resources. If I were a "professional" notetaker, like a journalist, a programmer or a researcher, or needed to make lot of references to external sources, I would most likely prefer Zotero. It's a much more professional tool, you should try it before you dismiss it. Yes it's a Firefox extensions and Firefox is bloated and sucks in general from an end users perspective, but thats true about Mono too, from an end users perspective. It's kind of funny that you dismiss Firefox extensions and at the same time promote Mono applications, because they are really similar in that they are easy to create for a programmer but not very nice to the end user.

(*) Last time I used Tomboy (at the time it was first included in the official Ubuntu repositories), it was really slow, resource hungry and buggy. Tomboy actually made my computer crash at occasions, a rare thing on a Linux desktop. The interface was near perfect for my needs, but all the bugs put me off.
(Anonymous) on June 26th, 2009 08:08 am (UTC)
A vote?
Is there a chance Debian users get to vote on this?

We don't need 40MB deps. for a note taking application. ..and we don't need or want MS's hand this close to us, anyway.

I perfectly understand the appeal of migrating away from C/C++ for application level development, but we have:

* Python for smaller stuff. Like for instance this note taking application.

* The JVM with its various supported languages for bigger stuff.

* The many Lisp compilers and interpreters. Some of these compete very well with Mono and even C/C++ wrt. performance, while at the same time far surpassing "normal" dynamic scripting languages wrt. flexibility.

* The Parrot VM, while not here quite yet - seem promising in many ways.

I've been using Debian since 1997 and I have always liked its focus on the political aspect on software in addition to the usual technical ones.
np237np237 on June 26th, 2009 08:34 am (UTC)
Re: A vote?
You’re not in the position to decide which language developers should use. If you develop your applications, you’re free to use whichever you want, but telling others what to do is very rude.
Re: A vote? - urban_terrorist on June 28th, 2009 06:17 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: A vote? - np237 on June 28th, 2009 06:27 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: A vote? - (Anonymous) on August 13th, 2009 03:54 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: A vote? - np237 on August 14th, 2009 08:51 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: A vote? - (Anonymous) on July 1st, 2009 08:29 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: A vote? - np237 on July 1st, 2009 08:53 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: A vote? - (Anonymous) on August 13th, 2009 04:11 pm (UTC) (Expand)