np237 ([info]np237) wrote,
@ 2008-11-24 13:11:00
Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend  Next Entry
The great return of the broomsticks

While a few developers have the chance to be paid for their job on Debian, most of us are doing it on our spare time, for fun. Yes, we are making the best operating system out there, for fun. Yet a large number of developers are taking this project way too seriously. To say it in other words, they have a carrot up the ass. I happen to prefer the French expression though, since it conveys better the rigidity of their attitude: they have a broomstick up the ass.

Recently, when I launched the idea of the Bug Sprint, someone wrote to me to propose, instead of rewarding people with cookies, to send them money. This is the best example of broomstick behavior: taking the fun out of people by bringing back rampantly the very idea that almost split the project in two the last time it was introduced. The very same person, when faced with a sarcastic email sent to an announcement mailing list, immediately rushed in to send a ban request to list masters (a totally useless one, since I don’t have the habit to make the same joke twice). That person happens to be the project leader. So it seems the only thing the DPL has to do, at a time when we’d rather need people to fix RC bugs, is to protect the project from seditious members who don’t share their love for broomsticks.

When someone makes a bad-taste joke, you are not forced to laugh. But you are not forced to impose your rigid and moralist views either. And on top of that, throwing random accusations of sexism without any kind of justification does not improve the mood. This is even very close to defamation, but since I don’t have a broomstick in the ass myself, I prefer to just laugh at them with the help of some fellow developers.

I will go on shocking these people. And they won’t like it more than in the past. Every time one of them climbs on her high horse to take a pathetic and patronizing stance while totally missing the point, it will bring a bit of fun.

Edited to add (22 dec) : when I said “I will go on shocking these people”, I didn’t mean “I will purposely shock these people”. They shouldn’t expect to obtain enough of my attention for that to happen.

Bonus #1: as for the promised statistics, we are, at the time of writing, at 493 599 unique IPs who clicked on the trap. Quite a good investment for someone who’d want to make money from smelly geeks.

Bonus #2: here is a sexist picture.




(29 comments) - (Post a new comment)

READ THIS BEFORE POSTING A COMMENT
[info]np237
2008-11-24 12:23 pm UTC (link)

WARNING



Before starting to write any comment, please have a look at this picture.

If the picture doesn’t make you smile, you must not reply. You are entirely missing the point and any discussion with you would be pointless.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: READ THIS BEFORE POSTING A COMMENT
(Anonymous)
2008-11-24 04:52 pm UTC (link)
Did your post just disappeared from planet debian?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re:
[info]np237
2008-11-24 10:25 pm UTC (link)
No, there was no disappearance.
There’s nothing to see.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

My point of view
(Anonymous)
2008-11-25 11:21 am UTC (link)
I will reply to your article even though I don't find that link funny at all, but as you're quoting me in your text, accusing me of "climbing on my high horse to take a pathetic and patronizing stance while totally missing the point". You're right in one thing: "most of us are doing it on our spare time, for fun". Fun for everybody, not just for you. I'm very pissed off, not exactly because of your childish joke, but because of the "I prefer to just laugh at them with the help of some fellow developers" part. Thanks for laughing AT me. That kind of attitudes somehow define which kind of person is each one.

All of this has totally changed my perception of Debian, I don't feel this as an occasional tantrum. I finally see that Debian is never gonna be an inclusive organization, that "universal" part of the group we always seem to be announcing. I just won't keep fighting anymore to make a better Debian social environment. We lost the battle, you win. I'm seriously annoyed, mostly with myself, for ever believen that a better world was possible, thanks -to you and your fellow developers- to show me that there's no ope. I give up.

I'm not in the mood for writing a longer answer, and in any case I have the feeling that it will go straightforward to /dev/null, so I just won't. I won't be leaving the project or anything of the sort, don't worry. I'm just seeying it with different eyes.

Greetings,
Miry

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: My point of view
[info]np237
2008-11-25 11:31 am UTC (link)
The fact that a harmless parody generated such fuss is the proof that I’m not winning anything. The Debian social environment is ignominous, and you are among the people who are making it this way. This may not be your goal, but this is what you are achieving by trying to force your views.

Oh, and sorry to deceive you, but apart from spam, comments on my blog never go to /dev/null. I don’t need a blindfold to accept the world as it is.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: My point of view
(Anonymous)
2008-11-25 11:46 am UTC (link)
Sorry for existing. You are not alone in the world, you know?

Greetings,
Miry

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: My point of view
[info]np237
2008-11-25 11:54 am UTC (link)
I warned you it would be pointless to discuss if you didn’t like the picture. Here we are.

If you want to feel like a martyr, I can’t help it, but you are only hurting yourself and you’re not going to make feel me guilty of anything.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: My point of view
(Anonymous)
2008-11-25 12:33 pm UTC (link)
I was not being a victim, I was just being sarcastic.

Miry

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: My point of view
[info]doctormo [launchpad.net]
2008-12-17 04:27 am UTC (link)
> Harmless

It could have used a little more taste. I mean sure, being a guy it's hard to see what the fuss is about.

But I don't know, from the evidence I've gathered so far. I'm fairly sure that women are people, probably humans who have had to deal with being demeaned, belittled, told what they ort to be doing, where their place is in the world. The women in Debain probably have had to fight all that very hard.

That sort of worldly treatment would make anyone touchy. We can't all be Ghandi, but part of being considerate, is considering, empathy. It's not about stopping you, it's about not needing to because you don't want to hurt others (even their feelings)

Hey we all put our foot in our mounths, human right? But what makes us better people is when we admit that our words are careless and perhaps based on the wrong cultural values. I've already accepted that "normal" male culture as advertised is wrong, why can't others?

In this issue I can only offer my support for the women that have been offended. And offer my sympathy for the debian project for the damage that's been done.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

I have watched the picture
(Anonymous)
2008-12-17 05:52 pm UTC (link)
and I don't find it any fun. I didn't find your original post any fun either.

To be funny is hard when you write in a big forum, particularly when not using your first language and without knowing who will read it.

So maybe you should stick to not posting "funny" postings in large public mailing lists, instead of working to get Debian/Lenny out through the door.

And a good human can understand when he has been hurting someone and apologize for it. To error is human, so is to forgive. But then you have to make it possible to forgive. Your position in this is will not resolve anything, and only make you look like a male chauvinist, without compassion to other humans.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: I have watched the picture
[info]np237
2008-12-18 09:25 am UTC (link)
Once and for all: the post was meant to be sarcastic, not funny. (The picture, by contrast, is awesomely funny.)

Now please stop forcing your broomstick views to me, thanks. Seeing sexism, chauvinism, racism or whatever everywhere will not serve your cause.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: I have watched the picture
(Anonymous)
2008-12-27 04:23 pm UTC (link)
Fuck you.

"Seeing sexism, chauvinism, racism or whatever everywhere will not serve your cause."

No-one is seeing it "everywhere", they are seeing it where it *is* which happens to be *your* posting. You are clearly an immature, arrogant prick and your 'sarcasm' is not even slightly funny, not even _slightly_. In fact your scribblings are about on a intellectual par with the average youtube comment, if not below. Lack of humour aside rubbish like this is _utterly_ inappropriate for a a developers list and I can see how several groups of people might find your comments hurtful and demeaning.

You ought to be man enough to realize when you are in the wrong and to apologize sincerely for the harm you have, quite evidently, caused. Sadly I predict you will continue to defend your actions as 'harmless' and brand anyone who disagrees with you as uptight like the stuck up little misogynist shit that you are.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: I have watched the picture
[info]np237
2008-12-27 04:54 pm UTC (link)
Did you actually look at the picture in the warning message before posting?

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]bma [subvert.org.uk]
2008-11-25 12:37 pm UTC (link)
So basically you're saying that people shouldn't bother to oppose things that they perceive as unjust? Sexism, racism, whatever -- even if the intention wasn't to be offensive, it can still be so, and it shouldn't just be ignored.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


(Anonymous)
2008-12-18 02:23 pm UTC (link)
No, that's not what he said.

I also was offended by JM's broomstick reference, but am coming to think that maybe he was right.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Great Thank
(Anonymous)
2008-11-25 02:16 pm UTC (link)
Hi, I'm the author of "La Fuite du Cerceau", and I would like to thank you for your linkage.
Sorry if people around you or your work have that much broomsticks up their asses.
In fact, I'm using ubuntu, based on Debian, but you probably already know that, and I saw your article on planet debian. You know, it's like getting back to the roots in a vicious circle (what the hell am I talking about ?), and moreover, I'm root on my computer, but that's really not funny.
Well, sorry for this pitiful comment (and my english), and have a nice day.
Come back whenever you'd like to !

(Reply to this)

Counting clicks is fairly ... pointless
(Anonymous)
2008-11-27 12:16 pm UTC (link)
Like I suspect most of the others who clicked on the link, I did so only because I didn't see the point of the spam, and was hoping there'd finally be one at the other end of the link.

(Reply to this)

Respect
(Anonymous)
2008-12-16 02:44 pm UTC (link)
You should as a man show respect for women, too bad I'm in the other side of the world (Guatemala) but we can arrange your come here so I can show you what your father didn't.

Hehe this was a funny joke too didn't?..

Ohh and don't say something about this joke because I'll start attack you personally.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Respect
(Anonymous)
2008-12-16 03:27 pm UTC (link)
Isn't that sexist in its own right? Shouldn't it be you should treat people with respect regardless of their sex, race or religion? /me hops off his soapbox :p

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Unfortunately
(Anonymous)
2008-12-16 04:32 pm UTC (link)
the quality of your "werewolf" parody is very low. You should probably stick to your first language when writing parodies, as it is very difficult to translate.

(Reply to this)

:/
(Anonymous)
2008-12-16 10:59 pm UTC (link)
When I first got the email from the list I did think it was rather odd and have to say that I didn't find it funny at all.

What I do find funny is all the fuss the message is creating. It is draw-dropping that people have so much time in their lives to poor over this kind of stuff trying to make a political issue out of it.

What is less funny to me is that there are 70+ RC bugs preventing the release of Lenny right now; maybe you all need to redirect your focus in to getting our OS release instead and fix some bugs.

(Reply to this)

Your sense of humor
(Anonymous)
2008-12-18 03:28 pm UTC (link)
SUCKS!

Leave Debian already. Nobody wants you anymore and your totally brain dead blog posts sure as hell don't help.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Your sense of humor
[info]np237
2008-12-18 03:37 pm UTC (link)
*smack* I love you too.

(As for my leaving, I’ll let you discuss with those complaining everyday that Debian is already lagging behind in GNOME packaging.)

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Not funny
(Anonymous)
2008-12-18 04:50 pm UTC (link)
Your message was not funny.
Please stick to packaging and refrain from driving much-needed contributors away from the project.

(Reply to this)


(Anonymous)
2008-12-18 06:27 pm UTC (link)
As someone who enjoy having carrots and broomsticks up his ass, I find your post very offending.

(Reply to this)

Some points
(Anonymous)
2008-12-18 08:04 pm UTC (link)
I am not a DD, but I want to raise some points:

1) debian-devel-announce is a mailinglist about announcements for Debian developers. I fail to see in what way your posting would be on topic off that list. "But you are not forced to impose your rigid and moralist views either" suggests to me that you dislike when someone forces oppinions or views upon you. I fail to see in what way your posting to debian-devel-announce is different. Care to elaborate? You have your views and people who you perceive as "rigid" and "moralist" have their views. But none of this is on topic on debian-devel-announce. I find using debian-devel-announce in that way to share or in someone's else perception to force your views upon the debian developer community and other subscribes of this list abusive. You are free to post your jokes on your website or blog.

2) "I will go on shocking these people."

Why? What does it give you?

Fun? "And they won’t like it more than in the past. Every time one of them climbs on her high horse to take a pathetic and patronizing stance while totally missing the point, it will bring a bit of fun."

Or do you intend to change those people that you perceive as "rigid" or "moralist"? You won't. Cause what you resists persists. Again, what does it give you?

3) People have told you that they find your joke offending. Miriam for example showed clear signs of feeling hurted in my perception. I wonder what your heart does say to this, even when you do not understand why Miriam and other feel being offended and/or hurted. Do you want to keep on "shocking these people" which in my perception directly translates to hurting them?


One recommendation to anyone who feels offended or hurted by the joke Josselin made: Concentrate on what kind of community you want to create and work with those who have a similar vision. Instead of fighting people who do not seem to share your oppinions. Again: What you resists persists. Be what you like to find in this world.

And finally my own oppinion on this joke: I agree it lacks respect for female beings. Still I find it a bit funny as well. Jokes often tend to lack respect for things or beings they make jokes about so thats not surprising to me. Even more tasteless jokes may be somewhat funny - that does not make seem appropriate for all situations. It all depends with what intention, in what atmosphere and in what forum or group they are being expressed. The joke Josselin made can be perceived in a completely different way depending on how it is said and with which intention and in which group of people who receive the joke. As parody that is not meant seriously at all it might even be funny without offending anyone. People reacted offended and this shows that it was perceived as such by them - and if I made a joke that offended people I like to work with, I care about I would be more careful next time. Josselin thats what I miss in your reaction. Added to that still it would be off-topic on debian-devel-announce and IMHO most if not all other debian related mailinglists.

Martin Steigerwald (you can find my mail on the net easily enough if you want to reach me)

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Some points
[info]np237
2008-12-18 09:30 pm UTC (link)
Thanks for taking the time of an insightful reply; it is refreshing after that storm of hate.

1) I have already apologized for misusing debian-devel-announce for sending this. I was very angry at Joerg for sending his advertisement on this list earlier and did it without thinking enough. Although many people complained about that misuse (which was a very valid complaint), the broomstick-enabled people focused on the contents.

2) You can see it as a form of resistance against those who want to force their views into the project, making it look like them: plain and boring. But that’s also, simply, how I am. I like to make bad word plays, bad taste jokes and dark humour all the time. My acquaintances include blondes who love to hear blonde jokes, Belgians who love to hear Belgian jokes (for those who don’t know, French and Belgian people like to bash each other for whatever reason), and women who laugh at sexist jokes. As for those with not enough self-derision for that, they learn to hate me, but frankly there are very few of them.

3) AFAICS Miriam wants to feel hurt. It seems she will find any kind of pretext to show herself as the victim. It shows even more in the IT wire article, where she vomits on the Project and pretends to be a victim. But here, she is the one trying to polarize the discussion around genders, and I find it a really sexist and aggressive behavior. It doesn’t help at all her cause, and this kind of behavior actually contributes to exclusion of women in IT.

I won’t treat women in the project differently from men, just because one of them wants to feel different. You can have a look at this article which explains why much better than I could: Be a dick, if that’s what you are, from Charbucks.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Some points
(Anonymous)
2008-12-19 07:01 am UTC (link)
Re 1) Ok. I am happy that you recognize your own feelings in there.

Re 2) It is who you are? Good. Maybe how Miriam and other offended people reacted says something about who they are. That can work nicely together as long as everyone can leave each other who they are. So no forcing on views on the other one on both sides would be beneficial in that case I believe.

Re 3) I don't know Miriam and I won't speak for her. Anyway it doesn't at all matter whether she wants to be hurt or not. Again: You won't change her, she can only change herself and its hers whether she wants to and/or feels fine with herself. So what matter here is IMHO: What do you want to do? You recognize that she felt hurt. Do you want to go on doing things that make her feel hurt? Even Charbucks "Be a dick, if that's what you are" makes a difference there:

"Am I saying that you need to go out and be a douchebag to every woman that shows up? Not at all. Some women, just like some men (!), are easily offended, but most of the time it's pretty easy to tell who can take a joke and who can't." (! marking by me)

So if Miriam and others can't take the joke why insist on them taking it?

Re your last paragraph: I agree not treating women differently than men in a projekt can be a sign of respect for them in itself. But I am wondering whether jokes like your one can fulfill this approach. Do men make that kind of jokes about themselves? Do women make that kind of joke - "Oh thats a dick... wuhahaha" - about men? When treating male and female alike it is important to look whether the behavior in question is suitable for treating both male and female. I wonder whether jokes like yours can be or are used to reinforce traditional patriarchal structures. I think they can and are actually used like that. Just to demonstrate "We can make jokes about women that women can't make about us, cause we are more powerful and can do things with women that we won't allow them to do with us". I do not claim that these kind of jokes always reinforce patriarchal structures, but I think its possible that they sometimes or maybe even often do. And I think it depends on the intention of the one who presents the joke, the atmosphere and the audience in what way they are received. I have found with the very same woman that I could make the very same joke - may it be one about females or not - in a certain situation and with a certain kind of attitude and the women receives the joke without feeling offended. And I have found that in another situation the very same women feels offended when I make the very same joke. I also observed this with myself as well - I claim the right that a man can be sensible and I am at quite some times - for what its worth I also claim that men can have a really pretty body as well and I think I have one so being pretty is not an exclusive feature of female beings in my eyes ;-). And I observed that some people can take a joker better than others in a certain situation. So to finish this: I think its important to reflect the intentions behind a joke and to observe closely how it is being reacted upon. If someone feels hurt in my eyes its approbiate to be more careful the next time. A joke doesn't feel that funny to me anymore anyway when I observe that someone whom I wanted to make laugh reacts offended then. If I wanted to make a women laugh and she doesn't laugh I think I would look carefully at what went wrong.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

I still don't see the big fuss
(Anonymous)
2008-12-31 04:47 am UTC (link)
While the post to DD was obviously off topic I don't see the big fuss. Maybe it's because I'm a guy, but on first and second reading of the "advertisement" I thought it was targeted more at stinky french men who should use this product to attract "chicks".

So, if referring to women as chicks is sexist, then you might as well lock up the entire male population.

Darn, did I say stinky french men? I guess I should quit being such an arrogant american now...

BTW, I laughed at the Palin/Biden picture... and yes, even as I guy I would be offended as a woman at the #2 example as it is definitely sexist. Some people just need to grow a thicker skin, or as you might say, pull the broom out of their ass :)


(Reply to this)


(29 comments) - (Post a new comment)

Create an Account
Forgot your login or password?
Login w/ OpenID
English • Español • Deutsch • Русский…